posted on June 20, 2002 10:19:02 AM new
Now that I got more information from the USPS regarding my mail fraud investigation, I can share some information about Paypal’s horrible service and worthless attempt to stop fraud..
Last year (October 2001), I sold an item on Ebay and the winning bidder contacted me by e-mail and asked if they could pay for the item with Paypal. I was an premier account holder and had been for over a year so I said ok.
They then e-mailed me an address and asked for a shipping cost. I went to the post office and got a price.
Later that night I received a payment notice from Paypal in my e-mail. So I logged into my account and saw a payment for that item. The payment was from a Verified Paypal account and it was from Paypal funds (not an e-check and not a credit card) as they had given me an address prior, they chose no shipping address required and sent me the funds without a shipping address.
Because of this selection , Paypal removed their account address and any of the normal warning of shipping or possible chargebacks. (Remember these were not credit card funds so they could not be charged back.)
So I sent the item with online tracking (which I covered the cost) to the buyer at the address they gave me. They got the item. They then left me positive feedback and an e-mail thanking me for the item.
Ok. Another completed sale. Or so I thought. About 3-5 days later, I got a generic e-mail from Paypal saying there was a pending payment reversal against my account. That I had 7 days to contact Paypal. So I replied sending them a copy of the tracking number, the feedback and the e-mail saying they got the item. Paypal gave me an automated response. So I sent them again, And again and again. All to only get automated responses. So on the 5th day, I finally found a phone number and called Paypal.
The guy who answered the phone rudely asked why I was calling and said I should be e-mailing them. I told him I had only two days left. He said a "buyers complaint" was filed against me but could not release any more information at that time. He said I have to prove that the item was shipped to the confirmed address. I told him I shipped to the only address I was ever given and it was received. He said I must prove that the address was “confirmed”. He told me to get a court order to make Paypal release the account information so I could compare it to my tracking address. I asked what ? He said that the terms of use says I must ship to the confirmed address to be protected under “sellers protection” I read him the term of the sellers protection it at that date where it said you must ship to the confirmed address for chargeback liability protection and that I did not get a chargeback. He said too bad. I am at “BUYERS MERCY” and if I can not prove my protection in two days, my account would be deducted the amount of $350 + . I then asked to speak to his supervisor. He told me he does not have to transfer me and then hung up on me.
So the reversal went thru. About a month later an Ebay user e-mailed me and told me they were frauded by the same Ebay user (but they did not use Paypal. They were paid by check and recovered all losses) He said once he got his money he would give me his phone number. He did and I called them. They said they got the item and would pay me with a money order. That never came. So I filed a USPS mail fraud investigation.
I contacted Damon from Paypal on the Ebay message board. He was beyond worthless. He said it does not matter what happened. If I did not ship to the confirmed address, I was liable. I asked him to show me where in the terms of use it said I must ship to the confirmed address (which was hidden on the account) Damon then posted the terms of use from Jan 2002 which turns out was re-written to say the word reversal where it said chargeback a few months before (http://www.archive.org to see the change)
Damon then claimed over and over the sellers protection was not changed. What ?? I showed him the changes word for word and told him Paypal can not legally alter the terms of use and apply it to past events. Under the new terms, the sellers protection says you must ship to confirmed address for reversal liability. Before it said Chargeback liability. (proven fact)
So now my account sits at a negative balance of over $350 and the buyer has responded to the mail fraud investigation 6 months later with a partial payment (less then half) which proves they got the item. Paypal and Damon stands behind their right to reverse the funds payment even though the buyer got and kept the item. The buyer has not paid me for my item yet and Paypal wants me to send them my money so their account can be used to comit mail fraud. So basically this buyer used Paypal to comit mail fraud and Paypal processed the reversal even with all the proof I offered them.
I have been an Ebay user for over three years and a Paypal user for about two years. They are a rude and unhelpful company. I have never dealt with such bad service and flat out disregards for the difference from right and wrong. Ebay at least closed the account but Paypal did nothing what so ever to help me.
As an California resident. I have contacted one of the law firms in an attempt to join one of the class action lawsuits against Paypal (if it does not cost me in time or travel). I have sent them some information including post from Damon from Paypal when he claims the sellers protection section of the terms of use where not changed and where he posted the incorrect terms to show me where they had a right to process the reversal.
It has now been 45 days after the buyer received notice from USPS and has acknowledge the claim with a response. However their debt has not been paid so I can now notify USPS that the part in question has not followed thru in full.
And Paypal still thinks that the buyer of the promised goods that were shipped and received has a right to the reversal because I could not prove that the address where they requested shipping was “confirmed” or not. I could not get the required court order in 2 days so I lost the claim. Buyer almost fully got away with Mail Fraud thanks to Paypal’s services.
posted on June 30, 2002 03:11:41 AM new
You DID NOT FOLLOW the RULES...so, you got BURNT! Grow up & blame the proper persons: YOU & YOUR CROOKED BUYER!
posted on June 30, 2002 06:18:18 AM new
but paypal revised the terms for seller protection from chargeback to reversal.
can you file ebay insurance claim against this buyer??
posted on June 30, 2002 05:42:09 PM new
Tom is back with his usual rhetoric protecting the EVIL empire. AS usual everyone else is wrong,not PAYPONZI. Let's see what the New York State AG office has in store for them.
posted on July 1, 2002 10:13:44 AM new
stopwhining
[can you file Ebay insurance claim against this buyer??]
No. I tried. Ebay only covers the buyer in the event they pay and do not deliver merchandise. They do not cover when a buyer uses Paypal to commit mail fraud by reversing payment after they get the item. They do not cover the seller except that I got some of my fees back and Ebay closed the account they used.
I was able to inform Ebay of the fraudulent act and they said because I was not paid for the item, I was entitled to some fees back and they would investigate the account used.
They really could not understand why Paypal would allow the buyer his money back but that Paypal is a separate company and Ebay has no control over them.
At least Ebay did something. Paypal did not.
Ebay was very supportive, as much as possible.
Paypal was rude, worthless and very unprofessional. They made no effort to help me. They made no effort to investigate against the fraudulent claim even though I offered them beyond reasonable proof of fraud.
And Paypal still found it in their hearts to charge a service fee against me even though they never did what I paid them to do.
tomwiii
Did you sell your brain on Ebay?
[You DID NOT FOLLOW the RULES...so, you got BURNT! ]
The rules are very simple and are put in place by the United States Postal service.
I followed them 100%. I recieved a payment for an item I sold on Ebay. The person who sent me that payment asked for the item to be shipped to them. I shipped that item with online tracking to the only address they gave me. They then recieved the item and confessed to recieving the item. They told me by phone and e-mail they recieved it and they told everyone on Ebay feedback they got it.
I proved they gave me that address. I proved they recieved the item requested at that address. I proved they kept the item.
So by all systems or laws excect Paypal, the person should be forced to fully pay for the item or return the item.
Paypal thinks they have a right to give away my merchandise for free. And then charge me a service fee for riping me off.
I even now have a scan from USPS with the person’s signature and address filled in by them, which proves 100% that they did get the item and such must pay for it.
But they used Paypal to reverse the payment after they got and kept the item.
And Paypal fully let them.
The buyers has told the USPS they recieved the item without paying for it. They told me by e-mail and phone they got the item.
That is mail fraud. It is against the rules of the US postal service.
USPS said if someone buys something and has it delivered USPS and then does not pay for it after they get the item, which is mail fraud.
Yes they are a crooked buyer. And they used Paypal to perform a crooked act and Paypal let them without question or penalty.
And from Paypal's own words "You are at buyers mercy"
posted on July 1, 2002 10:34:51 AM new
BRAIN you say. ROFLMAO You have to have one to sell it. I think I saw that somewhere in the TOS.
[ edited by club1man on Jul 1, 2002 10:36 AM ]
posted on July 1, 2002 01:16:32 PM new
it appears that paypal is trying to say-it makes no difference whether the buyer pays with his paypal fund or use his credit card via paypal,if you do not ship to confirmed address,you are not protected as a seller.
a play of words-reversal versus chargebacks.
you find a leak in their terms of service-chargeback vs reversal and they closed that loophole right away,they should thank you for that!!
posted on July 1, 2002 01:59:48 PM new
stopwhining
[it appears that paypal is trying to say-it makes no difference whether the buyer pays with his paypal fund or use his credit card via paypal,if you do not ship to confirmed address,you are not protected as a seller.
a play of words-reversal versus chargebacks.
you find a leak in their terms of service-chargeback vs reversal and they closed that loophole right away,they should thank you for that!!]
Yea. I guess that is what it boils down to. But with a chargeback, Paypal is trying to protect you from a credit card company. A third party. When a reversal goes thru, Paypal has the first and final say.
Paypal had full control and the choice to process the fraudulent reversal. Paypal chose to let it pass even thought they were given clear proof it was a false claim.
And I fully believe I helped Paypal re-word the terms of use. I pointed out to Damon that the terms were not correct last year and then somehow they were re-rewritten in Jan to reflect what they should have said.
I pointed out the terms of use under the section of "Sellers protection" did not require shipping for reversal protection in October. It was later changed in Jan 2002 to include that.
I should charge Paypal a service fee for doing their job. I helped them with the terms of use. I tried to help the stop fraud.
But now Paypal gives permission to fraud people.
Paypal's seller’s protection is a list of things that can be done to fraud people.
Prior to Jan 2002 it could only be done on a chargeback.
Now Paypal will allow its users to hid their confirmed address and then commit mail fraud if they get the item shipped to them.
So now a buyer can arrange pickup of an item and then get their funds back after they pick up an item.
Now a buyer can ask for alternate shipping address and then reverse payment all through Paypal after they get the item.
Now a buyer can have an item shipped from another county to the US without online tracking and get their item for free.
Paypal will allow an account holder to file a false claim. Paypal will even process a false claim even if proven with external help to be false.
Even though mail fraud is a criminal act in the United States, Paypal's service can be used to commit the act easily and without question as long as you can "unprotect" the seller.
As Paypal own words to me. “You are at buyers mercy”
Even though it's wrong and against the law, Paypal will let you do it. They will not stop you.
I proved with help from the USPS that a Paypal account was used to commit mail fraud against me. But Paypal is unwilling to take action to protect me or penalize the party who did it.
Thanks Damon and Paypal for showing us exactly what to expect as from you even when we are long time customers.
posted on July 1, 2002 04:23:10 PM new
KKaaz
To put it bluntly, it's in payponzi's best interest to pamper the buyer. Even though they charge you the fees, if the buyers stop using payponzi then their source of revenue drys up. Sellers may come and go but buyers are always there.
posted on July 2, 2002 04:57:12 AM new
if you follow paypals TOS it is pretty simple to order an item ask someone to ship it to a difference "unverified address" most will do. then claim you did not receive it and "presto" you get a refund.
sucks a company leaves the sellers who use their service open to this!
