posted on August 31, 2000 10:05:35 AM new
This is (almost) not related to auctions and/or ebay at all, except that it is consuming my mental and emotional capacity to the point that it is hard to concentrate on anything else. I've seen much good law advice here and wonder what you may tell me.
I have a small piece of property bought for the trees, had no knowledge of easements, power company clear-cut without notifying me--- they and the tree service admit they are wrong.
How do I resolve this? How do I find a good attorney if needed? What would you do?
posted on August 31, 2000 10:14:54 AM new
simco...I belong to a Pre-paid legal service so I have an attorney on retainer at all times. You can do a web search to find them.
However, in this case, you may want to try and find an attorney that specializes in real estate/environmental law. Again, you can try a web search or talk to the real estate agent who sold you the property. They may be able to recommend someone. You can sue for the "value" of the trees.
**********************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
posted on August 31, 2000 10:36:54 AM new
We just went through this SAME ordeal. We contacted the local tv station and then called the President at home. We told him the news was ready to do a story. We pointed out their enviromental policies as stated on their web page. We told him we would have a web page up the next day if it was not resolved and post a link on their stock page. He was personally at our house in two hours with 6 handmaids, came in for tea and cookies and ebay chat.
They took care of the problem to our satisfaction. No legal interaction was required at all.
They have since been back to take down a tree in the yard at our request and trim everything up all nice.
Just don't accept 5 "No's" from somewhere in the ladder. Go straight to the top with the power of communications in your hand.
T
Do be polite. Bake cookies. Make tea.
[ edited by jt on Aug 31, 2000 10:38 AM ]
posted on August 31, 2000 10:46:48 AM new
njrazd
Thanks for the advice, I'll do a search. Have talked to 9 attorneys already with not much success.
jt
I went straight to the Pres. of the corp. and he literally threw his hands up and said, "It's not our problem." The way I understand it the power company notifies the tree service of work to be done, and gives them the responsibility of notifying the customer--and they pass the responsibility down to the tractor driver who admitted he didn't even attempt to find me.
I suppose my biggest problems is that I am easily intimidated by them, feel very vulnerable after-the-fact, and am very shy about public speaking of any kind.
posted on August 31, 2000 10:50:21 AM new
Also, I contacted three local TV news reporters from three different stations. They wouldn't get involved. One reporter even told me the same thing had happened to him in a neighboring state--maybe same tree service, I don't know, but have been told they have contracts in 41 states. Whose backyard will be next?
posted on August 31, 2000 11:02:28 AM new
simco...I did want to mention we have something very similar going on with one of my co-workers regarding a large tree that was removed without everyone being notified. It seems the City needed to remove it because it was causing havoc with the water lines. While this may be true (and a very legitimate concern & cause), they still neglected to contact everyone who was affected. This enormous decorative palm acted as a large screen which afforded 4 neighbors some excellent privacy. After some ranting, it turned out there was really nothing that could be done since the water dept did have cause. They just mumbled their apologies for not making more of an effort to contact.
The worst part about this is we all work for the City involved and couldn't get any satisfaction. In your case, it may come down to a viable cause for removal.
Good Luck!
**************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
Viable cause doesn't seem to be the answer.
The property is in the country. Most of the trees were not tall enough to be in the lines. The one that was is still in the lines today. Even if there is a legal easement of 10 feet on either side of the line, they clear-cut a swath more than 50 feet wide in places, and clear-cut under a secondary line which goes to the neighbor's house---even tho they told me they don't cut under secondary lines.
posted on August 31, 2000 11:19:32 AM new
9 lawyers? Where did you find them? Call your local bar association and have them give you a list of lawyers in your area who specialize in real estate law.
You can file in small claims court yourself without a lawyer - the monetary limit in small claims court is not what you could sue for if you had a lawyer, but you could get the satisfaction of making them admit their guilt.
Thanks, I will call the bar association. The attorney for the power co. is probably the one that would be recommended in my state!
The lawyers were mostly from a near-by city, and mostly in agreement that I had a case against both the power co. and the tree service. None were able to take the case for one reason or another. Probably have the same power co.
They have already admitted their guilt, just don't seem to want to do anything about it. I think we have a strong good-ole-boy network around here!
What is the statute of limitations on something like this?
posted on August 31, 2000 12:44:48 PM new
There's a lesson here...
"I have a small piece of property bought for the trees, had no knowledge of easements, power company clear-cut without notifying me--- they and the tree service admit they are wrong."
Sounds like someone was too cheap to hire a lawyer BEFORE he bought the land to have the title and easements checked and explained to him.
Like the ad on TV says... you can pay me [hire a lawyer] now, or pay me [hire a lawyer] later...
posted on August 31, 2000 12:45:53 PM new
Now that you've located the 9 wimp lawyers in town, it should be easy to find the killer lawyer that Macandjan was talking about. Get one who is experienced with and certified to appear before your state regulatory commission. (Public Utilities or Public Service Commission in most states) That way, he has two possible avenues of redress available. Most people only see the ratemaking functions of their state regulators. The fact of the matter is there is a very stringent set of regulations concerning dealings with the public set down by the regulators in each state. I can tell you from over 40 years experience in this field that the attorneys for the utility would much rather try to bulldoze a paltry settlement through as part of a civil action than face an administrative law judge in a hearing where the deck is usually stacked in the consumers favor. You might also want to report this to your local authorities as tresspassing and vandalism. If it flies, the judge can order restitution far in excess of a small claims limit.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on August 31, 2000 02:20:39 PM new
Okay, I had a different, but similar situation. First--DON'T go out of the county for a lawyer unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO! Judges HATE those foreign uppity lawyers! LOL
Then, go to someone who is BIG in the county (the person who has been around the longest and knows everyone--or as close to that as you can find) and then ask HIM. Say, I need a lawyer and I need the meanest lowdown dirtiest SOB that I can find! I need the one that makes the town (city, county, whatever) attorney quake! I can guarantee there IS one and realtors and business folk in the area will know who they are if you ask around enough!
Then go get him--post haste! Tell him what is going on and what happened, and often, if it is the right guy, a letter is all he will need to do.
posted on August 31, 2000 03:02:51 PM new
simco -
First ... what do you WANT them to do?
Replanting the places they clear-cut outside the easement, with trees of similar size and species, sounds reasonable to me - giving you back as much as possible of the scenic beauty you bought the land for. They will fight it, because it is expensive, but tell them to "restore the land" and they will know what you mean. The power company may sue the tree company, who HAS TO HAVE insurance afor this kind
Do you want to publically humiliate them ... call the local TV "action line" kind of reporter and turn them loose on the tree service and the power company for wreaking environmental damge beyond what their easement allows them to do.
"I went straight to the Pres. of the corp. and he literally threw his hands up and said, "It's not our problem." The way I understand it the power company notifies the tree service of work to be done, and gives them the responsibility of notifying the customer--and they pass the responsibility down to the tractor driver who admitted he didn't even attempt to find me. "
Point of law ... they are responsible for the actions of their "agents". And if they hired someone who screwed up, you can go after both parties. Call him back and say "Pres", you CAN do something. You can send a landscaping company in to replant the trees (specify same size and species!) that the tree service YOUR COMPANY hired cut where they had no legal right to. Do that and I will not have to sue you to get the money to restore the enviromnmental damge you caused."
That might get his attention.
But you wil either have to be nasty yourself OR hire a pitbull of a lawyer.
another route ... tree service should be licensed contractor. File a complaint with the registyrar of contractors, again asking for "restoration of the land with trees of a similar and species" outside the easement area.
and chew out your RE agent for not informing you of he easements. It's their job.
posted on August 31, 2000 03:42:54 PM new
Do you even know how big the easement is? They may have cut inside of the easement.
What did they admit being wrong to. You not being notified?
I would think that the power company has a right to maintain their power lines within the easement.
They need access to the lines and surely can not have trees growing under or close to them.
What if they would have let the trees grow and one of your children climbed the tree and touched the power lines and was electrocuted.
They should have let you know this was going to be done as a courtesy. But had they let you know you would not have been able to stop them anyway.
posted on August 31, 2000 03:57:28 PM new
If they cut outside of their easement, they owe you everything they cut. Do you know how much it costs to transplant one mature tree?
posted on August 31, 2000 04:07:56 PM new
I can't believe that power companies even clear cut anymore at all! They MUST know it is WRONG! It is laziness. One might even say negligent. What is that term for knowingly neglegent? http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/[email protected]/
posted on August 31, 2000 04:53:02 PM new
Not knowing the entirety of the situation, I have a few non-lawyer suggestions:
Many cities and counties have tree ordinances regulating which trees can and cannot be cut. If you're in the county (or parish, or whatever) call and ask for environmental services or code enforcement. Then ask about the tree ordinance. (County commissioners/aldermen can be useful here if you get nowhere with staff.)
Don't talk on the phone. Write letters or visit in person. It's far too easy to blow off a phone call. Also, the phone calls provide you with no documentation. Keep copies of everything.
Take a close look at the deed for an easement.
Do your best to take a reasonable but positive tone -- I KNOW we can work this out. It's most effective.
One question: You say you bought the land "for the trees." Do you mean because it was forested and you like it that way...or for the timber? As cold as it may seem, the second answer puts you in a better position becuase you have easily provable economic damages.
posted on August 31, 2000 05:29:40 PM new
macandjan
Yes, Have been told I'm too nice! Chainsaw idea works!
Property was posted No Trespasing, first tree to go had a sign.
capotasto
Not too cheap, too un-informed! And actually title insurance wouldn't have helped--already checked so I wouldn't unnecessarily kick myself.
sparkz
I have to go to another town--say Chicago. Anyone know a hot law firm there? Unfortunately, our power co. is not state regulated. They said check with the city council (good-ole-boy network).
labbiel
Yeah, we have one of those lawyers. He was on the board of directors for the power co.
abacaxi sg52
I want replacement value for the trees. And if they push it into court--punitive damages. Local TV backed off--maybe I didn't post that part yet.
sg52 digitalman
After the fact, I learned their rules--notify property owner first (one lady I know was chased down 4 days and they were mad at her time they found her to get permission to cut her property).
The first time the workers came to discuss the problem, they said their easements are 10 feet on either side of the line; they clear-cut wider swaths than 50 feet. Backed the tractor in the woods randomly knocking down trees. Most trees were saplings and a bit larger, not huge, not anywhere near the lines. The one tree that can be seen from the road which is in the power lines is still in the lines a year later.
One question asked of me by both companies is: Someone mad at you in town?
posted on August 31, 2000 05:42:37 PM new
digitalman
The tree service told me it was a blanket easement and he would clear the whole property (4.6 acres) if he wanted to, and he'd do it no matter who told him to cut it.
They admitted they were wrong not to notify me, wrong not to stay within the easement (if there is a legal one) rightaway, wrong to laugh in my face and mock me, etc.
I'm not at all sue happy. It sickens me (literally) (that's why I'm here, for help to put this behind me) to deal with this. I didn't "take them on". They were in my backyard, destroying my property, and possibly without a legal easement. The document they gave me (finally) is dated 1938, I think, it doesn't have my name or address, doesn't have the correct legal description of the property, doesn't have the correct amount of acreage, and doesn't specify what the easement is.
posted on August 31, 2000 05:57:42 PM new
When you bought the property, presuming you bought it through a title company, you were supplied with a legal description of what you bought, including all easements. Such easements were bought from some previous owner, and once filed, typically last forever.
If you bought it from "a guy", who simply granted you a deed, you'll have to go to the local courthouse and find the easements for yourself.
Check out the easements. Describe your loss in the context of any relevant easement. What papers "they" have are irrelevant, but any easements on file are very relevant, and complaining without noting such easements leaves your complaint appearing naive.
posted on August 31, 2000 06:04:32 PM new
Ours was cut outside the easement which is why we were compensated. We were told that the "new rule" (in our area) is to cut for 6 years growth future (that's a LOT of cutting) and they they admitted that they cut WAY beyond that.
We had a bulldozer guy here and he said that he had done nothing but "repairs" for the last 4 months 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Who is your Power Company company if you care to say?
I bought this property through a realtor, loan from a bank. Received abstract several months after closing. I got a copy of the deed from the courthouse and it doesn't list any easements. Abstract contains a similar copy of the "blanket" easement as stated above. It doesn't have my name, my address, doesn't have the correct legal description of this property, doesn't have the correct amount of acreage. The power co. says that is my easement. They also say that their easements are only ten feet on either side of the line and so many feet up to the line. The tree service claims they can clear the whole property if they want to because it is a "blanket" easement. See the confusion I've encountered? I'm sure I am naive. But what is the relevant easement? What constitutes a legal easement---one that I have to uphold? No easement was mentioned before I bought the property by the previous owners, by the realtor, by the banker.
I have even hired a tree service to come to the property to tell me how many of what kind of trees and help me get a claim together. They said there is so much damage and it would take them so long that they hated to charge me so much and left charging me $150 just to tell me that. Then graciously cut that to $75 when I talked to the owner. They said straighten out the easement first and claim whatever is outside of it. OK. So how do I do that?
posted on August 31, 2000 09:23:13 PM newsimco crucial to your case is the nature of the easement, if any.
This still sounds confused. If there exist power lines over your property, then there almost certainly exists an easement which allows cutting trees under the powerline.
I'll suggest that your problem finding a contingency lawyer is based on two things:
1.lack of a good explanation regarding this easement.
2. no real money even if you're right.
You can pursue the first one yourself. Ask for help at the courthouse, you might get lucky and the person behind the counter can help. You (or someone) must however find the easement before you can evaluate whether the tree cutters even did anything wrong.
If you find the easement, and it seems clearcut (hmm) that the easement did not allow what happened, then most states allow a small claims filing for a few $1000.
If my guess is wrong, and both the easement was clearly violated and the trees were extraordinarily valuable, then you should find it easy to find a lawyer to take your case when presented with reason to believe both. Be prepared to explain the relative value of the property (clearly established by your purchase), the trees which remain, and the trees which were cut.
posted on August 31, 2000 09:27:42 PM new
simco: I can only imagine the feeling in the pit of your stomach when you discovered this. Fifteen years ago some cretins hired by the power company took the front and center out of a 70-year-old maple in our front yard (technically it was in the park strip, owned by the city, but the lines involved didn't warrant the butchering the tree got. I called our city manager, a neighbor, and told him we'd budgeted $5,000 to sue--somebody--anybody--over the butchery. He sent a legitimate crew out, and they pruned around the edges of the wonderful old tree so that it wasn't quite so lopsided looking. I called a friend who worked for the power co. and she personally sent out linesmen who replaced the lines out front with a different sort of line which they assured us would never need to be protected again. It has taken the tree 15 years to grow its middle back.
It never hurts to call someone in power and tell them what you've budgeted for a lawsuit.
It's time the businesses involved are held liable for what they do to our natural treasures. Sometimes I think the tree butchers grew up in a neighborhood with no trees, with nothing natural that their families treasured.
Thanks so much for your time and effort here. That frustration and confusion is exactly what I'm experiencing trying to resolve this. I will go to the courthouse.
The way I'm explaining it to you is the way it was explained to me. With the documents in hand it was somewhat easier, but the two documents weren't the same.
That's why I need to know what a legal easement consists of. And then is this "blanket" easement legal--do I have to abide by it?
posted on August 31, 2000 09:50:20 PM new
roadsmith
You got it! Most of the ugly pruning jobs you see are around power lines, and totally avoidable. So sad to see.
Seeing the devastation to my property felt as though they had done it to me personally.
I know that it was not necessary to do what was done. As I said above the one tree pointed out to me by the power co. that had limbs in the lines, still has limbs in the lines. So how urgent could their work have been. They did not clear the whole line. Just my property. Imagine--they moved their equipment about 30 miles just to cut my property and leave. Sounds fishy, huh?
posted on August 31, 2000 10:57:50 PM newAnd then is this "blanket" easement legal--do I have to abide by it?
The easement will grant the power company the right to specified activities, which you generally have no legal way to stop. It won't say "blanket easement", it will say exactly what the previous owner granted them the right to do in exchange for compensation.
