posted on January 1, 2001 08:28:09 AM new
Here is the eBay policy on "key word spamming": Key Word Spamming
Seems clear enough. Personally, I dislike "white on white" or "meta" keyword spam...in most of those cases, it's a deliberate and sleazy attempt to draw attention to an auction from potential buyers (using search) who would not otherwise be likely to see it, who don't want to see it, and who consider it 'clutter' that detracts. I was also glad when eBay changed its rules to prohibit statements like, "please see my other auctions for items including widgets, doodads, and thingamabobs," since those non-widget items would turn up in my search for the perfect vintage widget...more clutter.
So, what's my problem? Well, I collect (specifically) these exceedingly silly and tacky little condiment jars (from the late 50s/early 60s) made by (or similar to those made by) a company called Holt Howard. Of the 600 or so little jars and bottles in my collection, I'd guess that maybe 30 of them are actually "Holt Howard", and the other pieces are made by other manufacturers, some easily identified (by maker's marks and stickers) and some unknown. The definitive collector's book for this junk is called "Holt Howard Collectibles and Related Ceramicwares of the '50s & '60s." Most people who collect this stuff refer to their collections as a "Holt Howard collection." And many sellers of these pieces on eBay will refer to the pieces (in their auction titles and/or descriptions) as "Holt Howard-like" or "Holt Howard era" even when the manufacturer of the piece they are auctioning is not HH, and is identifiable. For me, that works. Makes it easy for me to do a search for "Holt Howard" that brings up a lot of pieces that might fit my collection. Of 75+ specific bookmarked searches that I have developed to feed my collection...this one has been, by far, the one that most consistently bears the most fruit.
So...to the point...one of my favorite sellers has recently had some of her auctions shut down because she described her non-Holt Howard pieces as "Holt Howard-like" in her auction title. The actual pieces in question were made by another manufacturer (Lipper & Mann) that most folks never heard of, and most folks wouldn't search for. But these pieces are commonly considered a part of a "Holt Howard collection". The auctions were shut down by eBay because of a violation of "keyword spamming." Knowing eBay's limitations, it's likely that they didn't discover these auctions on their own, but rather, the auctions (and "keyword" rule violations) were reported to eBay by another seller, maybe with an ax to grind, maybe trying to cut into the competition, whatever.
Holt Howard (as a brand name) has been out of circulation (no products carry the name) since 1990, and effectively since 1974, so there is no active trademark infringement, and there is no VeRO involvement here.
I guess I don't know how eBay could reasonably make exceptions to their (generally pretty good) keyword spamming rules...I think the company is just too big to see these things in shades of gray. But in this case, and some like it, it doesn't seem that the 'violation' has created the situations (trademark infringement, deliberate search manipulation and diversion) that such rules were created to avoid. In this case, it seems that what has been created is an opportunity for one seller to zap competition from another. And the funny thing is, not knowing who "did" it, she can't even check to see if that other seller is (very likely) doing exactly the same thing...although she wouldn't turn the other seller in, regardless...just not her way.
I'd be interested in the opinions and experiences of others here, particularly sellers.
posted on January 1, 2001 08:45:48 AM new
Someone looking for ONLY Holt Howard jars might have been annoyed at all the HH-like listings.
One way around it is to mention the reference book in your auction ... The definitive collector's book for these items is called "Holt Howard Collectibles and Related Ceramicwares of the '50s & '60s" by Author Whoever" ... absolutely nothing to complain about because you are merely giving some information about the product and its identification.
posted on January 1, 2001 08:46:40 AM new
Hi Beth,
Seems like a simple problem to avoid for sellers. All one has to do is use the words Holt Howard somewhere in the description - "found this piece on page 45 of my Holt Howard book" and they'll have no problem with eBay. My guess is most serious buyers of HH & like items search the descriptions for these key words as well. It may well have been a fellow collector that complained to eBay, and not a seller?
posted on January 1, 2001 09:08:53 AM new
You are correct that someone reported the violation to eBay, rather then eBay seeking out violations on their own.
As someone pointed out, the obvious solution is to put the words "found in the Holt Howard book on page xx", rather than "Holt Howard-like".
How could eBay possibly develop a set of exceptions to the keyword spamming rules that would take into consideration every little variation of each collectibles category? It's easy enough to choose wording that dones not directly violate the rules.
posted on January 1, 2001 09:22:00 AM new
Some of what Ebay and other people on the Net concider Keyword spamming is concidered Reasonable marketing in the advertizeing world.
In fact a good part of why Net advertizeing is down is because of This so call spamming mainia thats has run rampid on the net over this last year.
In fact to see ads that says this is the same as ProductX With the same detail to quality Only you can get it here for hundereds less is a very Normal and reasonable advertizing and marketing method.
Infact the net is the only media where users refuse to move on if they Dont want productx that is being advertized and complain untill the rules are changed and twisted so much that no one can find a way to advertize Some very fine Goods effectively.
The real key is for newer users to learn how to use the Web and search more effectively instead of haveing tons of new users getting on here year after year complaining and trying to change the rule more and more each time to fit those who cant be bothered to learn how to do thing the right way.
posted on January 1, 2001 09:32:17 AM newdman3 I was under the impression that the only time you could make claims about your product being the same as ProductX With the same detail to quality Only you can get it here for hundereds less, is if you had the proof to back it up. In other words, you had test results and/or scientific evidence, Other wise you could be sued for false advertising.
If the seller can back up their claims, I don't see any problem. The problems I do see are the auctions that toss in names just for the search hits. If this practice is allowed, we may as well forget finding anything, becasue the search function will be worthless.
I have reported two sellers for keyword spaming. One using white on white, and the other selling art prints that threw in about 25 unrelated artists names to get the hits. When over 100 items show up in a search that usually resultes in 10 items it is a big pain.
posted on January 1, 2001 09:41:06 AM new
Sorry this happened hellcat. The enforcement of theis rule seems to be so subjective! Last night I was browsing for Moser Art Glass, and came across a listing showing Moser Murano Orrefors...Now, it cannot be all three....But using all three names ensure visibility of all three categories, for the price of one listing. I am not saying it should be closed; just questionnning the fairness, or rather lack thereof, of this new rule.
Why was THAT not shut down? So, you are right, it appears to be a "snitch job"...
Gosh Shosh!
posted on January 1, 2001 09:51:18 AM new
DMAN -
For searches to be useful, the chances of you actually retrieving an item yuoj were loomking for have to be prety good. When sellers subvert the search engines by planting words they know will be searched for, which have NO relation to the item they are selling (except perhaps to be the brand or style that their item is imitating), it's wasting the buyer's time. They have a right to complain and get the practice corrected.
What if the yellow pages allowed businesses to list anywhere they wanted to? Florists would clog the listings for formal wear in case you wanted a corsage, and the funeral parlor listings in case you wanted to order a wreath. Consumers would not like either one, because it increases the amount of information they have to sift through to get to the relevant stuff.
If you were searching on the Web for a Volkswagon and every seller of every car model had the words "Volkswagon" listed in their keywords you'd get realy pissed off really fast. In fact, this practice can get a site dumped from most search engines because it reduces the efficiency of the search ... see searchenginewatch.com for the details.
Same on eBay. When I'm searching for Tibetan jewelry and run into several DOZEN listings by a seller who is selling cheap cast iron cauldrons for Wiccans, and who has stuffed her auction full of every concievable keyword having to do with the new age, alternative religions and herbal medicine ... she is wasting a non-renewable resource (my time) and I will certainly turn her in.
posted on January 1, 2001 09:53:31 AM new
Hi folks! Thanks for the responses!
I agree that it is simple enough to get something into the description to grab anyone who is doing a "Holt Howard" search which includes descriptions, and a lot of sellers do that. In fact, they DO use words like, "can be found in the Holt Howard book on page XX" or even "I can't find this piece in the Holt Howard book, but is similar to those included." And that's legit.
But what's pretty funny is, if the seller knows the manufacturer (and it isn't Holt Howard) they can't legitimately put "Holt Howard" in the title. But if there is no manufacturer's mark on the piece (and that's common with this stuff) and the sticker is gone, it's perfectly okay to say "Holt Howard?" (with or without the "?" ) in the auction title. And lots of sellers do that, particularly those who aren't familiar with these pieces--they've just picked them up at a flea market or yard sale--just buying stuff to sell on eBay. Alot of these ceramic novelty items from the kitschy '50s weren't marked (or were just stickered, and folks giving them as gifts or using them in their homes would peel off the manufacturers stickers just as they would peel off the price tags).
I'm not selling on eBay, but I think that if I were, I'd want to get my auctions into a "title search" result, if I could. While I agree that more serious collectors will do their search by both title and description, I don't think someone looking for a gift for me (an addition to my collection, say) and not that familiar with this stuff would go to the descriptions.
And I sure don't know any reasonable way that eBay could make rule exceptions, Chipguy...it would be mind-boggling!
You're right abacaxi, I suppose that it could have been someone who was only looking for Holt Howard...and Neil, you could also be right--it could have been a collector. I guess it could be anyone who complained. Just because it doesn't bother me, that doesn't mean it doesn't bother someone else.
You sell some of this kind of stuff, Neil (according to my collection records, you sell quite a bit of it to me)...and I think you handle it by reference to the HH book in your descriptions, right? But what would you do if you were selling, say, the "jolly girl" ketchup from pg. 66 in the HH book? Nobody knows who made that line...how would you title that auction? Would you put "Holt Howard" in the auction title?
posted on January 1, 2001 10:12:23 AM newBeth .... That's a tough one. I would probably use something along the lines of:
"Pixie Jolly Girl Condiment Jar"
OK, that line of condiment containers aren't Pixies, but they're close enough for the girls I go out with.
I can't see eBay shutting them down for using "Pixie" in the title, and between "condiment" and "Pixie" one would easily zero in on most of the HH collectors. The collectors that only collect the Jolly Flower Girl line would find them as well.
I tend to use "Condiment Container/Jar" for the unknown Japan lines, and Face Pots for the unknown British made pieces.
I also tend to list all of the British made Face Pots under Sylvac, knowing that even though some of them are not made by Sylvac, the collectors of Sylvac Face Pots will often times go for the other British made pieces.
BTW - I was a bit surprised you didn't go after the British Pixie Marmalade Face Pot I had up several weeks back? Then again, you most likely already have one, or more?
FYI - It ended up going to a Sylvac collector, who lives in the UK.
posted on January 1, 2001 10:22:01 AM newBeth ..... BTW - did you know there's a "Collectible:Kitchenalia:Storage Jars" category now? It must only be found on the UK site, as it doesn't show up on the US eBay site? I sure wish eBay would offer the same categories across the board, it must be very confusing for new users?
posted on January 1, 2001 10:47:54 AM new
Heck Neil! I missed the marmy jar! I've really backed off the eBay spending lately, and I found that I can do better at holding to my resolution to spend less money on this collection if I don't look. I decided this weekend to give myself a treat and see what was out there, which is what started this correspondence with another of my fave sellers.
Your listing for the Jolly Girl (including "pixie" and "condiment" ) would hit 3 of my searches. If you also said "ketchup" it would hit 4. I would assume that you would reference the HH book in your description?
Listing all the Brit-made face pots under Sylvac (the category) is interesting, and I think it's smart--so I assume that any Price Kensington, or Sadler, or Szeiler, etc., would also be listed in the Sylvac category? Brings to mind another question, though, if you don't mind...suppose there was a Holt Howard category? Would you put all the non-HH (but HH-like) stuff in there? How about those pieces with identifiable mfgs. (like the Napco, Deforest, Lefton, Enesco, etc. condiment jars from that HH era), some of which have their own mfg. categories?
Hope you don't mind my picking your brain this way...please tell I-M that I'll return most of it.
posted on January 1, 2001 10:51:41 AM new
Hey WOW - BETH!!!! Happy New Year to you!!! So nice to see you and some of my other favorite people posting together here!!!! -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on January 1, 2001 11:00:18 AM new
No, Neil, I didn't know about the category! And are you telling me that you can't get there from a North American listing? That's bizarre!
Well, WOO-HOO! It's Rosalinda! Happy New Year, my friend! Hope your Christmas was a good one?? Dang, it is nice to "see" you!!!
posted on January 1, 2001 11:08:32 AM new
Yeah to make the claims for products you would need the proof.
I agree just planting words for effect is not a good thing at all and shouldnt be allowed.
Many products do come with the proof and use claims of being lower cost at the same quality Right on there packageing and is becomeing more and more commonly used on everything even store name brand items.
posted on January 1, 2001 11:33:51 AM newBeth ..... That's a crying shame about the Marm jar. It was a yellow headed pixie [devlish looking] made by Price Kensington.
I started it at $1 and I think it finished at $20. Next time, eh.
And yes, I list all British made Face Pots in the Sylvac category. I've tried other categories for the British made pieces and the Sylvac category wins hands down.
If there was a HH category, I would probably list all the American/Japan pieces in there, including Lefton, Napco, DeForest etc. Most of those categories don't seem to have a strong following of the Pixie/condiment type collectors. Chances are that most bids that come in are picked up via search. If you check my present listings, you'll see what I mean. wink-wink
BTW - I always use "Holt Howard" somewhere in my descriptions for all of these pieces.
posted on January 1, 2001 11:53:25 AM new
Keyword spamming is extremely irritating to me. I'm glad that Ebay has a strict policy against it.
Has anyone checked out the Yahoo listings? Here's one of the many that are currently running.
New DESIGNER SUNGLASSES(louis vuitton kate spade hermes gucci prada armani dior
You have no way of knowing who the designer of these "Designer sunglasses" is unless you click on the auction and usually the designer is not listed in the description either. I find this misleading to the extreme!
posted on January 1, 2001 12:04:46 PM new
The enforcement of the policy - if the seller asks eBay - pretty much goes along this line:
If it's not an actual product from the company or specifically for a product from that company (i.e., some companies make lenses that are specifically for Nikon cameras), you can't put the company name in the title. But, you can use the company name in the description, as part of the narrative for comparative purposes.
posted on January 1, 2001 12:33:54 PM new
As it turns out, Neil, I have that Price Kensington Marmalade face pot...I thought I got it from you!!! I know I got a P-K celery from you..and you're right! He is a devilish lookin' fellow, isn't he?
I saw your Napco Big Cheese earlier (when I was doing my HH search)...I've got him, but don't have the Deforest in the HH book that you compared him to. I hadn't noticed that you had listed that jar in two categories, though...do you do that alot, and is it giving you a good result?
BTW, I think your "PY" apple cream & sugar...isn't. I think it might be Grantcrest, maybe. Look at the Grantcrest apple CJ on p. 90 of the HH book...similar coloring (red top to brown bottom).
And a big "hideyhi!" right back at I-M!
Glenda, do remember back when eBay rules allowed you (even encouraged you) to insert a very brief list of "keywords" in your auction description. You'd see them all the time at the bottom of auctions (it was supposed to be visible, not white-on-white). They even gave an example in their help pages. The whole purpose was to get the hits on search. Times change, eh?
Hope you and Bob had a great Christmas, and are heading into a fine new year!!!
posted on January 1, 2001 12:34:47 PM new
"I can't find this piece in the Holt Howard book, but is similar to those included..." is not legit, it is keyword spamming. It is a lame attempt to attract bidders who are searching for HH pieces.
It may be that you don't mind because you collect other pieces as well. But eBay users should be able to use the search engine without being hooked by "looks just like a Gucci."
Suggest you narrow and define your searches better so that you can find your friend's items easier. Also, your friend might put her own username within the text of the description. That way, regulars can say, "Oh, let's see what so-and-so is selling today."
Often spammers have the best of intentions; that is, to make their items easier to find. Most people find this annoying.
posted on January 1, 2001 01:12:55 PM new
Thank you so much, Twinsoft, on your advise to improve my searches. It is surely appreciated!
As it happens, my friends' auctions (her seller list), like those of Red-deer, are among my bookmarked searches, so I don't have any problem finding them at all. eBay has long provided a handy-dandy seller search for just such a purpose, making it unnecessary for sellers to include their user names in their auctions in order to be found via title/description search.
Not surprisingly, we disagree about what is or is not a "lame attempt at attracting bidders" or "keyword spamming." Happily, eBay doesn't see it your way, and, in fact, allows for a brand name (which is not the name of the manufacturer) in the body of the auction description for comparison purposes. EBay addresses this, and provides some sound guidelines and advice with regard to this in the link I included in the first post of this thread.
Unfortunately, I am not nearly so knowledgeable as you are about what "most people" find annoying. Thank you for sharing your more generalized knowledge with me.
posted on January 1, 2001 01:19:34 PM new
You're a lawyer. Why do you bring this topic up to us proles?
Since it's you, your response is typical and expected. If it were anyone else, I would ask why you post an issue here, and then criticize a poster for responding.
But since we have a history, I can only say, "yawn."
posted on January 1, 2001 01:30:19 PM newTwinsoft, you baffle me. I don't believe you will find any words of criticism for you, or any other responder to this tread, in my posts. Rather, I have expressed gratitude to you for your advice regarding upgrading my search capabilities and the sharing of your "people" knowledge.
My professional training has nothing to do with it, and is wholly unrelated to the topic, so I really don't understand why that is relevant.
Sorry you're feeling sleepy. Too many bowl games?
Have a nice day, Steve.
Beth
[email protected]...ask for Martin.
[ edited by hellcat on Jan 1, 2001 02:02 PM ]
posted on January 1, 2001 01:31:47 PM new
Twinsoft
"I can't find this piece in the Holt Howard book, but is similar to those included..." is not legit, it is keyword spamming. It is a lame attempt to attract bidders who are searching for HH pieces.
Interesting comment. Do you own, or have you ever read Walters book? You might be interested in knowing that most of the similar condiment items have their own seperate chaptors in his Holt Howard book. Companies such as Napco, Deforest, Davar, Lefton, PY, etc are all included in his book [including prices]. The reason for this is that many collectors of HH, such as Beth, also collect the various pieces made by the numerous other Face Pot/Condiment Jar companies.
Using Holt Howard in the description would hardly be considered spamming, at least not by eBay's standards. Eliminating the use of HH in the description [unless it was marked as such] would also mean that many of the HH etc collectors would miss out on many of these pieces.
Beth
Nope, that one you did not get from me? I guess after a few hundred jars it's easy to get mixed up on where & who they came from?
As far as the PY piece. Grantcrest, perhaps, perhaps not? I have some serious bidders from overseas that are convinced PY made these, but I honestly have no idea? I've sold them in the past and always called them PY items. I thought that the Grantcrest pieces were always marked as such, but maybe only the larger pieces?
No doubt the Spam Police will now be checking it out to see if I've violated any rules.
posted on January 1, 2001 01:51:55 PM newNeil, heh! Sorry...didn't mean to turn the keyword spam cops in your direction. However, as you know, PY wasn't really reliable about marking their pieces, and they manufactured a lot of stuff (left deliberately unmarked) that went out under other brand name stickers, or they used their "Ucagco" mark (sort of like Lefton/ESD, or Davar/Artmark--same company, different mark). I'd love to see someone try to prove that the C&S set "isn't" PY...and it sure wouldn't be me.
And you're right...I went back in my database, and I got the P-K Marmy, along with a P-K Chutney, from a fellow in England, back in February. But it shoulda been you, shouldn't it????
posted on January 1, 2001 02:04:23 PM new
Reddeer, no I did not know that. You have the advantage over me. I can't speak for eBay, but if I was a support rep, I would be inclined to allow,
"This can be found in the HH collector book on page XX,"
but to disallow,
"Looks like something that might be in the HH collector book,"
posted on January 1, 2001 02:20:56 PM new
Twinsoft ..... From reading your posts over the past year, me thinks you are somewhat out of your element here?
Take this for example. I have an old Slag glass lamp that I list. It's not really in the Mission style, maybe kinda sorta, but not really, [and I don't use "Mission" in my title] but in the description I say that it would look charming sitting on an old Oak Mission style table. Key Word Spamming, naaaah, just a seller who's trying to give the bidders something to consider [mentally picture if you will] to entice them to bid.
One sees this all the time in antique & collectible descriptions and I don't think eBay is going to be so hard nosed as to ever make a stink over it.
Now, If I was to use the word Mission in the title, when it clearly was not a Mission style piece, that would be a different matter.
eBay is only clamping down on sellers that use words like "Holt Howard" in the title, when in fact the description shows it is marked as something else.
For that, I don't blame them, some categories are flooded with Key words that do not belong in the title.
IMO 3-4 yrs ago this wasn't a BIG concern with buyers, but as eBay has grown over the years, so have the sellers who abuse this in titles.
Do a search on "Eames" sometime & you'll see what I mean. God help the poor saps that are actually trying to find an Eames piece. I've even seen where sellers have used "Eames Era" in the title for a Holt Howard piece. Geesh.
posted on January 1, 2001 02:38:07 PM new
Well, of course that's a big part of the question. What is the intent of the seller? And you know we Americans have a problem with establishing intent. (Actually eBay uses the term, "purpose." ) I personally would say, "looks charming on top of a [keyword]" would be spam. Just as I would say, "This KIA would look great parked next to your Mercedes" would be spam also. My only advice for a seller would be to err on the side of caution.
As far as glass, I know that it is what I see when I finish a beer. Other than that, not much interest.
posted on January 1, 2001 03:03:16 PM new
It is all a matter of degree isn't it. And judgement. You have to reach the folks who want to buy your stuff, yet not irk the folks who don't want to see your stuff. As almost always it probably comes down to judgement and good manners and showing consideration to others. and as my vey wise Daddy always says - everything in moderation.
Beth - all is quiet here - very low key holidays - just like I like em! It has been a really tough year both good and bad - and am glad it is over. Somehow the fact of a New Year always brings new hope for better things - a least for a few days ) Hope all is wonderful with you!
Red Deer - and a very Happy Healthy and Prosperous New Year to you! We had a three hour New Years fest on the DNF last night - it was fun. We all kept getting the time zones confused Too much earl grey tea - Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on January 1, 2001 03:05:00 PM new"looks charming on top of a [keyword]" would be spam.
Prolly not in the eyes of eBay, if in fact it was sitting on top of one, in your auction picture.
From what I've seen over the years, eBay has always been fair when ending auctions under their Key Word Spam policy.
And Beth, getting back to your original post, IMHO "Holt Howard like", or "Holt Howard era" , in the title, when in fact the piece is not a Holt Howard piece, is crossing the fine line.
[ edited by hellcat on Jan 1, 2001 09:59 AM ]
I decided this weekend to give myself a treat and see what was out there, which is what started this correspondence with another of my fave sellers.
) Hope all is wonderful with you!