posted on January 29, 2001 03:14:49 PM new
I'm somewhat interested in the co-op idea, but would like some idea of what is being planned first. I think there are basic issues that need to be hashed out before any such project can move forward, even to a planning stage.
1. auction, or set price? -- auction software is more difficult to write and support. a set price site would be much easier and cheaper.
2. register buyers or not? you pretty much need to do so on an auction site, but really don't on a set price site. again, not doing so makes the whole thing simpler. on a set price site you can just trade email and 'pull the item off the shelf' if it's sold, no need to register anyone -- which also lowers the bar to participation on the site.
3. what basic rules / policies would work to keep people from spamming the site? (rahd's concern.) How far do they go and where do they stop?
4. even assuming non-profit, how does it get paid for? flat fee? - the more you list, the more you make. fvf? - the more you sell, the more you contribute. listing fee? - you pay for the resources you consume. Given any one of these, what happens if expenses outrun income? if expenses increase suddenly, (eg, need some new hardware), where does the cash to meet them come from? Details aren't necessary here, just basic guidelines.
btw, twinsoft - any 'live' meetings are best conducted via irc or perhaps yahoo conversations.
posted on January 29, 2001 03:52:23 PM new
All fine questions Dave but kind of moot until they figure out where the start-up money will come from and who's going to have to give up their selling careers to run it.
posted on January 29, 2001 11:47:16 PM new
hardly moot - I'm not about to even pay much attention until the basic parameters of such a project are proposed. What I hear so far is just a bit too vague.
posted on January 30, 2001 03:40:56 AM new
I just bought a hot property domain name perfect for an auction site. I wont say which one until the finalization of the domain transfer is complete.
I also have a Virtual private Server Account with Verio. Unlimited pop3 emails and unlimited badnwidth among other great features.
I also have a designer who is very talented in writing cgi and perl
I also have plenty of cash in private funding to maintain it and marketing expenses for an entire year.
I also have the full business plan mapped out to impliment.
More details to come once the domain name is successfuly transfered.
http://www.lovepotions.net
posted on January 30, 2001 03:45:23 AM new
"1. auction, or set price? -- auction software is more difficult to write and support. a set price site would be much easier and cheaper."
There are PLENTY of set-price sites already out there, and one at least is a co-op. The ability to MAKE MORE MONEY on my stuff at auction than having a stodgy storefront.
Don't think that eBay's problems NEED to happen with any auction software. They had BAD database design at the start, leading to bottlenecks and crashes, failed to install bug fixes and upgrades as they were made available, and didn't cover the basics of "hot spares" from the start.
"2. register buyers or not? you pretty much need to do so on an auction site, but really don't on a set price site."
Buyers need to be registered ... I'd place a limit on the number and/or $$ value of their bids before their identity is confirmed, to prevent the kiddies and eackos from running amok. After confirmation, they are wide open.
"3. what basic rules / policies would work to keep people from spamming the site? (rahd's concern.) How far do they go and where do they stop?"
They agree on joining to abide by the rules, one of which is that they post only in categories where the definition (the "charter" in newsgroup terms) specifically permits that kind of item. They spam, their posting privileges are yanked and their listings deleted. End of membership, end of problem. And because members are verified, they can't get a new ID and come back.
"4. even assuming non-profit, how does it get paid for? flat fee? - the more you list, the more you make. listing fee? - you pay for the resources you consume. Given any one of these, what happens if expenses outrun income?"
This is being pondered: Listing, but not FVF would equalize the playuing field, because it costs JUST as much to run an auction for a $5.00 carving knife as a $5,000 rare book.
"if expenses increase suddenly, (eg, need some new hardware), where does the cash to meet them come from?"
Co-ops have a "operating reserve" with enough cash in an interest-bearing account to pay for anticipated expenses AND emergencies. It's a wise idea to have it quite FAT at first, and once the organization stabilizes, start rebating the surplus OR spend it on something that will benefit the site.
If there is a HUMONGOUS capital expense that the fund can't cover the members have to cough up an assessment. This can be budget busting if a 30-member co-op housing group has to pay for a $120,000 repair, but with more members, the assessment per member drops dramtically.
posted on January 30, 2001 10:25:37 AM new
Hi, Dave: In case you're not following the other threads, I'd like to bring to your attention that http://www.cooperative.org/getstart.cfm is an explanation that cooperatives are ONLY for I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L-S - a basic bit o' info that I knew we'd have established by April, but didn't realize I'd wake up to. There is a lot of expertise on the web, comprised of individuals highly educated, highly intelligent, and highly motivated & interested about future developments on the World Wide Web -- even what happens to digital microbusinesses. I'm glad that someone with extensive experience with non-profits brought this crucial URL to our attention.
posted on January 30, 2001 11:17:21 AM new
What do you do about more controversial items, such as erotica and Nazi items? Do you have a simple if-it's-legal-then-it's-allowed policy or do plan on making tough judgement calls?
posted on January 30, 2001 05:48:27 PM new
bkmunroe -
I'm of the "if it's legal" AND "if they are listing it in the categories whose definition allows it" ... allow it.
Those who strew their listings into ALL categories on a thread-thin connection between the cat and their item (diet aids in women's clothing, because women are on diets) need to get whapped!
posted on January 30, 2001 06:09:12 PM new
I just posted about adult items in Canvid's thread. I'll repeat my main point here.
I'm really hoping that this new site will treat both buyers and sellers of legal adult items like first-class citizens for a change---which would be good for the co-op as a whole, since adult buyers are also buyers of all kinds of other goods.
Buyers of adult items are not freaks...they could be your friends, neighbors,your adult children, your parents.....teachers, doctors, constructions workers, WHAT EVER. They could have just finished buying that piece of Fiestaware or a Beanie Baby or a rare coin on the same visit when they decide to check out an adult video. Many people have the illusion that adult purchasers exist in some kind of vaccuum.
People need to protect kids--certainly. However, there is no need to keep adults away from legal products or make an environment in which they feel disapproved of for purchasing those adult products.
I also agree that things belong in their proper categories and miscategorization should be a definite no-no.
[ edited by brighid868 on Jan 30, 2001 06:10 PM ]
posted on January 30, 2001 06:47:08 PM new
I am a seller of adult category merchandise.
Ebay treats me and other sellers like immoral dirt.
WE don't even get to use billpoint ........ are my customers money less worthy than your customers???
Of course not. My customers have to go through many hoops just to even see my stuff. Every one of my customers have been credit card validated for age just to be bidders.......unlike the rest of Ebay.
I can understand the extra log in to visit the mature audiences category.....but that cookie lasts 15 minutes so you have to relog in constantly.
When I log into Ebay to view my account I do not even get to see MY MERCHANDISE.......I to have to open a second window log into view the mature audiences...then refresh MY EBAY.....and do that same BS every 15 minutes....god forbid I sit idle for 10 minutes while writing a an email.
I pay just as much money as all of you and I get treated like scum for it.
That is one of the things I liked about Yahoo since my user ID has been credit card validated I can simply go to the adult category....no re-logins every damn 15 minutes.
The site I am working on treats all sellers equally. Once you log in and you are verified to be over 18 you are welcome to freely enter that end of the site. Adult sellers will have the same rights and priviledges as other sellers. Random unregistered bidders wont be able to enter that end of the site without an account for obvious legal reasons.
http://www.lovepotions.net
posted on January 30, 2001 07:24:53 PM new
brighid and lovepotions -
that cookie is short lived no matter where you are on eBay.
Billpoint doesn't want CC cards for the stuff in the Adult sector because of the historically high chargeback rate on porn items ... if Beanie Baby's had as high a rate of chargebacks, they'd refuse them too. With VERIFIED buyers, and somehow VERIFIED CC numbers, it would be less of a problem and you might find a billing service that would do a group rate.
If the adultchek service could verify AGE and identity ... they might be useful for ALL buyers.
posted on January 30, 2001 09:06:55 PM new
i can understand that billpoint won't take CC's for adult auctions....the thing about chargebacks is true, both because some vendors are very crooked and because some people who buy porn falsely chargeback or claim "some theif charged my card for smut" so their spouses/bosses won't find out..... and lots of adult sites have trouble keeping merchant accounts open for those same reasons..they have to go find new ones pretty often. (I do find it a little odd, since the merchant account provider passes the cost of the chargeback back to the original seller...but I suppose there are administrative costs to the merchant account provider that don't get reimbursed, so I can understand it.)
No, I don't care about not taking CC's, when it's for a legit reason---but I feel taking so long to give a search, and not letting adult sellers automatically access their own auctions were/are far more important indicators of Ebay's attitude.
posted on January 30, 2001 09:34:29 PM new
Is anyone looking at the buyers side of this? How are you are going to attract buyers? Amazon, Yahoo, and several other sites haven't been able to do it. I've scanned thru most of these postings and all I see are the sellers side of things. Getting traffic and buyers is the hardest thing to do.
posted on January 31, 2001 12:04:15 AM new
Hi, Dave. I like the idea of a co-op "plain vanilla" online auction house too. It's a format everyone's comfortable with. One advantage is that we could move right in to an existing site. There is also talk about developing P2P bulletin boards (which could also be used for live auctions).
Auctions or set price? For sure we'd be looking to keep the auction sales. There are mixed feelings about fixed-price sales and we need to look into this.
Registered buyers? We're thinking of a sellers co-op, the benefits being lower listing and FVF fees. There are no benefits for buyers, other than the obvious benefits of buying quality merchandise and enjoying the auctions.
Spam policies? This is a good question, and its something we need to educate ourselves about before trying to set policy. For example, there are differences between a worker-owned company and a co-op. Simplest answer may be, "whatever is best for the co-op." Some matters will be decided by a full member vote. Other matters will be written into the charter.
Fees? This is another thing we have to look at. We can charge membership fees, listing fees, final value fees, etc. We want to do this as fairly as possible. We want to encourage new sellers. Selling an item at the co-op should be as easy as selling it at eBay. I suggest a free 30-day, 30 auctions trial. Sellers who don't want to join can still sell, but with higher fees more inline with eBay or Yahoo.
Income/expenses? The thing to consider is that the entire membership participates in the decisions. One-man, one-vote. The co-op requires member support in the form of education and participation. This is an aspect of co-op that people don't understand: active support and participation are required. This is not about personal politics, it's about people pooling their resources together.
There are already 50,000 active co-ops in the U.S. alone. This isn't happening in the dark. In my opinion, it is inevitable. eBay's fee hikes and Yahoo's new fees may simply be the catalyst.
Keyword=cooperate
Loosecannon, it won't take any money to get started. Money is not the problem. We've got people waving $50 bills and saying "me, too!" That is a greater problem, IMO. We are in the process of creating a planning committee, looking at goals, and discussing a business plan. We can't just rush ahead at this point. We need to do product research, cost analysis and financial projections. Then create a business plan. Once we have an actual business plan, we can look at federal support (grants). All of this can be done by a few volunteers and without any money spent. The member support is there, but that can wait until we're talking to the SBA.
Abacaxi, I'm not sure buyers need to be registered (as members) but they should already have a credit account in good standing (either credit card of pre-funded account). I would love to see "deadbeat bidders" cut out of the equation completely. The co-op could maintain a credit account with all billing (dues, FVFs, payments, listing fees) handled automatically.
Abacaxi, listing/no FVF might be a good solution for that.
posted on January 31, 2001 12:09:09 AM new
Regarding sales of adult items, there are several considerations. We will have to look at it. This is a co-operative of sellers. No one person will decide this.
Pottery sellers won't agree to hiring a full-time staff to field complaints re: porn. Stronger category rules are important.
