posted on February 8, 2003 11:51:42 AM new
Once again there are new changes from paypal. Make sure you read this if you are a user.As this involves ebay its important that all sellers understand this.
Note: The User Agreement below will take immediate effect for all PayPal accounts signing up on or after February 7, 2003. PayPal accounts who signed up prior to February 7, 2003, will have 60 days after the date they next log in to their PayPal account to decide whether they agree to the new User Agreement. These accounts will continue to be governed by the old User Agreement until they agree to the new User Agreement, or until June 4, 2003, whichever comes first. To view the old User Agreement, click here.
If a customer does not agree to the new User Agreement within the 60-day period, PayPal will assume that the customer does not accept PayPal's User Agreement and prefers not to do business with PayPal. In such circumstances, after providing additional notice to the customer, PayPal will close the customer's account and pay out any existing balance under the terms of the old User Agreement."
Pay pal will now support buyers remorse leaving the auction seller up the creek.
posted on February 8, 2003 12:11:20 PM new
I'll agree it stinks. But it's nothing new. Anyone who accepts credit cards has ALWAYS had the risk of chargebacks from customers, for any reason whatsoever.
Most people are honest and fair, but some are professional crooks. The crooks know every line of the Paypal agreement and are going to find a way to take advantage of sellers no matter what the details are. For example in my store, I have three security cameras and two VCRs- I just lost several hundred dollars of items last week to shoplifters- the pros WILL find a way!
You just have to sell high quality items and deal fairly with people. Once in a while you are going to get screwed. It's part of doing business- you're either in business or it's a hobby.
Hobby sellers should probably stick to checks & money orders and leave Paypal & credit cards to the professionals.
posted on February 8, 2003 12:25:55 PM new
What is new is that all a buyer has to do now is break the goods or just plain whine, read buyers remorse and P.P. will just take the bucks back and you can not defend yourself at all.
The sellers protection clause does not cover buyers remorse. Paypal has always said that they do not get involved with merchandise quality disputes.
Well, that went out of the window real fast.
posted on February 8, 2003 12:27:01 PM new
As others have mentioned, I see no difference in the terms when the buyer uses a credit card.
But this situation will result in EVERYTHING being shipped insured or the seller is at total risk. Tracking won't cut it because even damaged goods may reach the buyer.
All sellers need to add insurance costs into S&H and do not offer the buyer a choice.
On the other hand, this policy may curtail some of the sharp sellers who think by stating "as is" or "no refunds no returns" some how exempts them from inadequate descriptions and items damaged in transit or never received.
Edited to add- eBay will probably move towards all payments being through Paypal.
posted on February 8, 2003 12:48:45 PM new"as is" or "no refunds no returns" some how exempts them from inadequatedescriptions and items damaged in transit or never received.
If they take CC payments, then they take a risk of a chargeback in any case. "As is" would not save them.
What I find a puzzle with this new P.P. deal is that they offer the buyers an insurance deal under the old terms for a low price that would cover "not as descriped items"
Now they can get this for free via the excuse thats not what I wanted, changed my mind etc...
In other words the seller takes on more and more risk while playpal like ebay gets off scott free.
posted on February 8, 2003 01:02:16 PM new
The answer is quite simple. Leave PayPal. If the sellers start leaving in droves, PayPal will come around, regardless of what the sellers want. But if you feel you have to stay with PayPal and a buyer or seller defrauds you, don't complain about or to PayPal. Submit all your evidence to law enforcement agencies AND the appropriate credit Card companies. How long would PayPal stay in business if Visa and MasterCard refused to honor their submissions due to excessive fraudulent activity.
.................................................
Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Firemen, Police. We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on February 8, 2003 01:02:28 PM new
Am I wrong or did I not see that buyers asking for refunds for "not as described" items must return the item via an online trackable route to recieve the refund.
posted on February 8, 2003 01:03:48 PM new
PayPal doesn't give a rat's a$$ if the buyer ever returns the item, they just switch the money taking their cuts.
.................................................
Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Firemen, Police. We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on February 8, 2003 01:05:56 PM new I see no difference in the terms when the buyer uses a credit card.
As far as CC goes, how many people use american express or discover cards to make a purchase thru paypal? The reason I bring this up is that on paypals site they do not state the fact that anyone using those cards can not do a chargeback via paypal as those cards consider this a cash advance and not a purchase unlike mastercard or visa.
This was an merchant agreement negotiated between paypal and discover/amex.
posted on February 8, 2003 01:13:10 PM new
No one would use Paypal if they didn't feel the service was a value to their business. The vast majority of people do not have a problem with Paypal.
The burdens that arise form an unsatisified customer have always fallen on the seller. many of the services that consumers have come to expect from palces such as WalMart, J C Penny, Sears, BestBuy, seem to be expected from even micro sellers on eBay.
Part of the reason that buyers are expecting these services is because they do not feel they are buying from a micro business owned and operated by an indiviual -- they are buying from the mega corporation eBay. That's the way ebay wants buyers to think until something goes wrong.
posted on February 8, 2003 01:25:22 PM newthey are buying from the mega corporation eBay. That's the way ebay wants buyers to think until something goes wrong.
Its called "branding", and you have hit this right on. This is why they want so much control reamond.
posted on February 8, 2003 03:18:50 PM new
what we need from paypal now is to take out some insurance as seller so if buyer returns goods,we still get to keep the money.
posted on February 8, 2003 03:41:10 PM new
i think this addresses complaints of buyers who cant win an argument against the seller for content/quality issue as in the past ,paypal said they do not get involved in quality/content issue.
like used car salesman shipped a rock instead of pc with online trackable dc??
or a genuine woodblock print versus a lithograph ?
or camelbone versus real ivory as seller just dont know how to tell the difference??
but ebay buyers are compensated for this dubious quality issue with lower prices.
where can you get clothes and shoes at 80% off retail prices?or real ivory for 30% of what they sell in store??
seller will have to raise prices to anticipate returns as returns are counter productive and raise the cost of doing business.
comments please.
posted on February 8, 2003 03:47:46 PM new
I would hope that my buyer would contact me before doing a reversal. Anything and everything can be worked out if only buyers instead of getting upset and doing a reversal that I would hear from them as I don't think that is asking to much. But will they do it. I guess it is how we as sellers conduct our business and how friendly we become with the buyer. I send a personal letter with my product and it says in the last paragraph. "Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or problems concerning your order" I think that probably that will have to be the first paragraph because I doubt if they read the whole thing. Some days it doesn't pay to get up.
posted on February 8, 2003 04:25:29 PM new
I don't see any differences that amounts to anything. If you used PayPal before you'll continue to use it, if you didn't use it before you still won't use it.
After 3 years I think most have made up their minds, this TOS modification isn't going to alter that.
posted on February 9, 2003 07:16:25 AM new
Hello,
All I ever hear about is the BUYER THIS THE BUYER THAT. 99.9% of the ebay buyers are all very good people and the others who needs ya. HEY buyers remember this. We sellers find the stuff, take photos, list it, pack it, ship it, follow up on email, educate the buyer, hold the buyers hand, hope we get paid, pay fees even if we don't get paid. All you buyers do is set on your butts push a few keys, (most of the time) pay for what you bought, and a few days later your item is at your door step. I personaly don't want to hear any more WHINING from buyers. If you don't pick your sellers carefully and base your buys on price only its your own fault that you get stuck.
posted on February 9, 2003 07:58:11 AM new
LIBRA, I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH CONTACTING THE SELLER FIRST, IS THAT MOST PEOPLE WANT TO AVOID CONFLICT. BY JUST GOING THROUGH PAYPAL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT NASTY EMAILS FROM A SELLER OR BUYER FOR THAT MATTER.
I STILL THINK THAT PAYPAL WILL TELL THE BUYER TO CONTACT THE SELLER, BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO.
I WONDER IF THIS CAME ABOUT BECAUSE SO MANY BUYERS WERE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE MONEY BACK GURANTEE?
SORT OF DOES PUT IT ON THE SELLER NOW...
OH YEAH AND BIGPEEPA, WHAT IS YOUR SELLERS ID, SO I CAN MAKE SURE I NEVER BUY FROM YOU?
YOUR EXACTLY THE TYPE SELLER THIS NEW PAYPAL TOS IS AIMED AT.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Feb 9, 2003 07:59 AM ]
[ edited by Twelvepole on Feb 9, 2003 08:01 AM ]
posted on February 9, 2003 08:49:21 AM new
paypal is aiming for more bucks,if in the past bidders do not want to use paypal as it offers no quality/content protection,then with this amendment,he may change his mind.
i for one have second thoughts of buying something expensive on ebay and use paypal to pay-what if the original print is actually a cheap copy of the original and 1000 dollars have already been forked over via paypal.
paypal said sorry,this is a content/quality issue,then my only recourse is to file chargeback with my cc issuer and then paypal will lock up my account and the seller account as well.
i have noticed ebay sellers who do not accept paypal or credit card direct,they just want money orders or bidpay to protect themselves,which is fine if they are reputable sellers ,even reputable sellers can slip a lemon thru every now and then.
so now paypal can earn more money ,bidders will be confident to bid on big ticket items from sellers who do accept paypal .
this will also put sellers who do not accept paypal or credit card direct at a disadvantage.
how many of us will feel comfortable sending a cashier check of say 1000 dollars or more to an ebay seller just based on his words and feedback??
it is a way of asking the seller to come clean??but then is this really what a fleamarket is all about??then why not go to a store ??
posted on February 9, 2003 08:56:03 AM new
I understand the buyers worry about bad sellers and think the protection is great by PayPal.... I DO NOT understand where the protection is for honest sellers from bad buyers... other than not useing the internet for larger items and not accepting PayPal.... our way or the highway?... zoom! zoom!
posted on February 9, 2003 09:36:39 AM new
okay, did I read it wrong or doesn't it say that the buyer must return the item and have proof that it was returned to the seller or the claim may be denied? and didn't it also say "if the item was not as described"? I don't remember anything about it arriving broken or buyers remorse...did I miss something?
posted on February 9, 2003 10:18:51 AM new
buyer remorse - buyer must return the item to seller with online trackable confirmation and then file complaint with paypal.
if the item arrived as a different item,or broken or damaged,the seller will have a hard time arguing with paypal,seller would have to produce strong evidence such as weight of item returned or the buyer has a reputation of scamming,or invisible mark on the item sold.
i would say in most cases,if the buyer returns the item per paypal rules,he is going to get the refund,unless it is so outrageous fraud like buy a pc and return an envelope??
what if buyer returns the item with no insurance and is broken in transit,the seller may be #*!@ out of luck,or return something similar ,same for the seller.
this is why all these nice rules -does it commensurate with a fleamarket mentality??
as for escrow,we are overestimating the ability of the esscrow folks,i have recently bidded on a case which i came here for advice,that print was taken to soethby of london and it took them weeks to decide it is not original/
i guess the bottom line is dont buy anything you cant afford to lose.
posted on February 9, 2003 01:42:27 PM new
Twelvepole, People like you always get it wrong. I said if foolish buyers only buy for price and don't check out their seller and don't read the auction description. That buyer is only hurting themselfs. They should stop WHINING. Ebay is a wonderful place to buy and a safe place to buy if the buyer uses his or her head. Don't worry about buying from me. I have nearly 4,000 positive feedback's with 5 negs. 4 of my negs are in retaliation from non paying bidders. 1 neg. I deserved, I blew my description but made a 100% refund to that buyer. So you can stuff your remarks about me in your hat.
posted on February 9, 2003 04:45:11 PM new
dont want to sound cynical and bitter,but like the saying,you never trust anyone 100%?
a very good dealer could slip something deliberately too,say he got taken and now what ,he is tight with money,cant eat the loss,so pass on the lemon.
no one judgment is always right,there are so many fakes out there.
what if i for a final hurrah,listed all the nice things i have sold already plus all the nice things other have sold already,and pick up the money and skip town.
when your rent is due and you are about to ve evicted,or your baby is crying and need food and medicine??it is not fun to be homeless and hungry in this kind of weather.
posted on February 9, 2003 07:40:17 PM new
Hey STOP WHINING, You would be looking over your shoulder the rest of your life. Is that worth it? I sure don't think so. Good Luck with your business.
posted on February 9, 2003 08:24:03 PM newI personaly don't want to hear any more WHINING from buyers. If you don't pick your sellers carefully and base your buys on price only its your own fault that you get stuck.
NO I READ IT RIGHT.... BITTER LONELY SELLER THAT CAN'T COMPETE WITH THE COMPETITION...
posted on February 10, 2003 10:26:41 PM new
Twelvepole: what exactly did he say that was
wrong? And what is your eBay ID (or IDs)
so that we can avoid you too? Cough 'em up!
---
"Cannot say. Saying, I would know. Do not
know, so cannot say". -- Zathras (Babylon 5)
posted on February 11, 2003 02:55:23 PM new
I think I read it too fast, or read it wrong.. is there a place in there that said they are going to REQUIRE a SS#? And that you can only withdraw $500 a month? Oh, and a credit check?
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
