posted on March 13, 2004 11:16:03 PM new
Who in the hell says YOU are obligated to leave a positive just because you received payment? Show me where it's stated in Ebay's rules that you are obligated to leave feedback for anyone at anytime. It's optional, period. It's idiots like you just quoted that cause sellers to NOT leave feedback until the transaction is completed, which is when the buyer receives the item and is satisfied. Wonder what kind of feedback the seller left for this moron?
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on March 14, 2004 04:07:58 AM new
To Sparkz,
I agree 100% with you...I guess we just have to keep on reiterating this point of view until we're understood.
To robbiec,
This argument never seems to die...and yet it's crystal clear that from a seller's position giving feedback first is dangerous. Some time ago I got an email from a buyer demanding that I give positive feedback first. This was my response.....
" Hi xxxx,
You are not alone in your opinion about feedback (the seller should act first) ....as it happens, at this very moment (at that time) there is a long (49 posts) exchange of opinions on this issue happening on the Auction Watch Ebay Outlook Forum. There are many who agree with you and many that don't. If you're interested, the following link will take you directly to it.....
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=453385
The initial entry from Kiddo echos my experiences and decisions closely. Ebay states "After you conduct a transaction, please remember to leave feedback for the buyer or seller that you dealt
with". This is a suggestion, NOT a command, that feedback be given at the end of the transaction, and it is the sticking point in this argument. My camp says the end occurs when the buyer receives the item and lets me know if he's satisfied....your camp disagrees.
However, my business is run according to a set of terms, conditions, and descriptions all stated in my auction page at ebay, and I determine that set. There is nothing there in conflict with ebay rules. If you understand that these conditions must be read and agreed to in order to bid, then the bidder has the option of bidding or not depending on his inclination. In those conditions I state that I reciprocate feedback...NOT initiate feedback. If you find that you can't agree, then you shouldn't bid.
My experience has been that about 99% of the people I deal with are decent, honest, and reasonable...problems are easily and amicably resolved. The remaining 1% are simply nasty, unreasonable, and on hair trigger to slam the seller....people with genuine attitude problems. I refuse to allow these people an opportunity to exercise their irrational behavior on me and my reputation.
So, xxxx, that's my response to your position on feedback. If you disagree strongly enough, please feel free to retract your bid and we'll just go on our ways.... "
So, in short, I'll never give feedback first because it exposes me to the bullys, and predaters that are waiting for an opportunity to hurt someone.
posted on March 14, 2004 04:40:09 AM new
robbiec, you don't live in the real Ebay sellers world. I have over 5000 feedbacks with 6 negs. One neg were deserved I made a mistake in listing, five negs are from WACKY people and non paying bidders. The WACKY people and deadbeats are gone but their negs live on in my record. I work very hard to be a honest seller and will not let WACKOS and DEADBEATS harm or run my business.
posted on March 14, 2004 05:37:55 AM new
My TOS states that I will leave feedback when the transaction is completed. I mean exactly that. COMPLETED!! Completed means the buyer has received the item and is happy with the transaction. Then and only then will I leave feedback. Too many times I've had a buyer pay quickly, be nice and then turn ugly on me. I will do what is reasonable to make a buyer happy but some people want nothing less than my first born child. I refuse to give a glowing feedback and then get hit with a neg for some silly reason that could have easily been rectified. As a buyer, I leave feedback for the seller immediately upon receipt of the item. It is my opinion that buyers should leave feedback first If that doesn't happen how does the seller know the buyer has received the item and is pleased?
As a seller with over 1000+ fbs I believe leaving feedback first is the kiss of death.
posted on March 14, 2004 05:56:29 AM new
I don't think we will ever resolve this issue! I also have over 5000 FBs with 4 negs - the last one from a newbie buyer who must not have received my WBN and emails (she never paid). I leave (or try to leave) FB when the item is shipped and so far (knock on wood) it hasn't hurt me. I wonder if it has more to do with the type of items sold (and hence the craziness factor of the buyers)than the actual time FB is left?
posted on March 14, 2004 07:01:46 AM newI don't think we will ever resolve this issue!
There's no need to resolve anything.
See, this is what gets me about chat boards. A group of regulars constitutes itself as a jury and passes judgment on each case as it's presented.
It seems that there are some people (and I'm not naming names) who aren't happy unless a consensus is reached on every matter.
But business doesn't and shouldn't work that way. There is no "right" way to leave feedback. There is no "correct" amount to charge for shipping and there is more than one proper way to calculate it.
Chat boards such as the eBay Outlook don't allow for differences in seller temperament, selling style, goals or merchandise. The few dissenting voices on a topic are either shouted down or quietly persist until they are ignored or (less often) accepted. Look at the no-snipe guy.
posted on March 14, 2004 07:40:42 AM new
I should have said we have "talked this matter to death and will never reach a consensus" ..my bad. I just threw in my two cents since there were two posters throwing around their FB numbers who inferred that leaving FB after FB received was the ONLY way to avoid getting bitten. It isn't necessarily so and I think it has a lot to do with client base.
I know when I first came to this board I gave serious consideration to changing my "modus operendi" by leaving FB after FB was received and then decided that that was too much of a hassle. I agree that what works for one seller won't necessarily work for another and thank god for the differences!
What about the no-snipe guy? Seems to me he posted not too long ago that his policy was working for him and didn't get too many responses. What more could be said anyway? Good for him. I am glad he is happy with the results.
Of course we have our gal Sal's posts ..and dbest AKA Mr. FLD (or Ms. though I doubt it)....always a good read.
I don't much enjoy direct personal attacks on any posters but I certainly enjoy dissenting opinions!
posted on March 14, 2004 08:38:03 AM newI don't much enjoy direct personal attacks on any posters but I certainly enjoy dissenting opinions!
I certainly agree with your statement neglus. I come to this board hoping I can help and get help from the very knowledgeable people here.
Also thanks for this thread I just realized I had a bunch of feedbacks to leave and most from new buyers.
Probably that buyer that left the negative about his positive transaction doesn't know how to leave feedback as I realize to a new buyer it is important to get the word out that the transaction went smoothly. I sometimes leave it first and sometimes I am just to lazy and wait until I have a bunch. I will probably now have 15 satisfied buyers and 1 seller.
posted on March 14, 2004 09:41:27 AM new
I always give positive feedback FIRST. It's my policy that when payment is received, then the BUYER has fullfilled his/her part of the deal.
It shows that I stand by my product and trust the buyer. It has alwsays worked for me. I get irked when the SELLER waits for me (BUYER) to enter + even when I paid a long time ago. As a buyer, it also lets me and the person know that order was processed.
Otherwise, you are engaging in a mild form of feedback extortion.
Think about it: when I go into a store and pay for the item, I expect good service and a thank you. When I get home and the product is defective, I am still entitled to say negative things about the retailer and obtain a refund, unless the product was sold with no refund.
You sellers who put feedback after the buyer does, keep on conspiring to lower your sales. I as a buyer bid lower or don't bid on auctions that put feedback afterwards, esp. if I see neg feedback retaliation by the seller who has received payment.
There are lots of SELLERS on ebay and BUYERS have a choice now. SELLERS, put yourself in the BUYERS shoes.
posted on March 14, 2004 09:48:22 AM new
I have over 1100 positive feedback and have been around since 1998. I'm not a professional, but a hobbyist. Not a novice by any definition.
Sure, I've had 2-3 problems by giving positive feedback first. But I get a lot of return customers. Because:
1.) combine all shipping at no extra
2.) write personal note on all shipments
3.) try to leave + feedback addressing name
4.) try to use stamps and not meter on shipping.
5.) wait 3 weeks to a month for payment.
6.) YOU get positive feedback on payment
As for those who go wacky... buyers know when that happens. Not all NEGS are equal and not all + are + if you know what I mean.
posted on March 14, 2004 10:00:25 AM new
In hopes that we don't just drag this disagreement on ad infinitum, I'm not going to repeat my own policy on feedback.
But I agree 100% with someone, above, that it must depend on the type of things you sell on Ebay. 1000 feedbacks, 2 neutrals, NO negs (knock on wood--I know there'll be a first time), and I sell collectibles and books.
My experience with collectibles buyers is that they are to a person kind and considerate.
___________________________________
Have you noticed since everyone has a Camcorder these days no one talks
about seeing UFOs like they used to?
posted on March 14, 2004 10:37:54 AM newI just threw in my two cents since there were two posters throwing around their FB numbers who inferred that leaving FB after FB received was the ONLY way to avoid getting bitten.
I agree. It's tiresome when people drag out their feedback ratings, as if that were an indicator of anything.
I'd rather have 80% feedback and earn $200,000 a year than have perfect feedback earning $25,000 a year.
posted on March 14, 2004 10:47:02 AM new
fluffy if I could only make that much...That must require 48 hours a day. If anyone made that much money feedback would be easy to leave that is if you have time.
The feedback system will never change and the discussion will never end. We all have our own opinions when it should be left and that should be left to us. If someone negs you about leaving feedback just answer it with a true answer and it won't leave to much of a RED mark.
The deal is never done until the customer is satisfied. Thus, when they leave you politive feedback, then and only then is the deal done. And then Of course, I return it then and only then.
posted on March 14, 2004 11:35:04 AM new
Libra: I don't make that much. But if the cost of making $200k a year was living with an 80% feedback rating, I'd be there in a flash.
posted on March 14, 2004 05:21:19 PM new
FLUFFY, you said, "But if the cost of making $200k a year was living with an 80% feedback rating, I'd be there in a flash."
You and I differ about our goals. I want to make 200k a year with a 100% positive feedback record not 99.9% like I have. That is the goal I always work towards. With an 80% feedback record I would know that I was doing something very wrong in making 2 out 10 customers unhappy. I would also be unhappy with myself for running a business that way. I am not only motivated by money I am also motivated by making people happy and finding a good home of a few good pieces of art and history from time to time. We just differ that's all. No disrespect intended toward you.
neglus, Yes, I posted my feedback record and yes, I am proud of my record. I work hard to be a honest seller. I will say once again in my opinion its stupid as a seller to leave any feedback first. Those sellers only leave themselves wide open to WACKOS BUYERS and NON PAYING BIDDERS on Ebay. In the past I left negs to non paying bidders and got negs back and thats all I got for my effort. Now those people are most likely gone but their deadbeat negs stay with me. No disrespect intended toward you. The way you run your business is your business not mine.
Both you and fluffy are sure right about feedback posts they are a worn out subject. I will not make a comment about feedbacks again. Its a dead horse subject.
posted on March 14, 2004 07:04:41 PM newWith an 80% feedback record I would know that I was doing something very wrong in making 2 out 10 customers unhappy.
This myth just persists and persists and persists, doesn't it.
I refer you once again to bargainland-liquidation, which at this moment has 89.2% feedback, up from 86% the last time I checked. I think they've gotten someone at eBay to scrub their feedback clean. If you look at their negs, they are overwhelmingly from people who did not read the auction they bid on.
If you want to take negative feedback personally or as an indictment of your sales practices, you're perfectly free to do so and I will never dispute your right to torture yourself over the possibility of getting the dreaded neg. I just don't see the point in doing it myself.
posted on March 14, 2004 07:56:42 PM new
fluffy, Never once did I say I was torturing myself, you said that not me. I said I will always work hard toward a 100% positive feedback record. Maybe that is an old fashion goal in todays business world and of course I will never be able to achieve my goal but that is the way I chose to do business. About bargainland-liquidation I have no idea who they are and really could care less I just hope they are as happy selling as I am. You may find this hard to believe but to some extent I don't sell antiques for only the money. To some extent I have gone beyond the money. I have a lot of other reasons that make me proud and happy to sell antiques and junk as I call it. I am sure there are a lot of other dealers that know what I am talking about when they went beyond only the money in selling.
posted on March 14, 2004 08:43:52 PM new
Some of this doesn't make sense!! You yourself bigPP say that whacko buyers leave negs at whim...how can you measure your "worth" as a seller by Feedback then??
FB doesn't mean diddly unless it points to real and continuing problems. It would be nice to have 100% perfect FB, but even good and honest sellers, yourself included (as you admitted earlier), are bound to get a deserved neg in thousands of transactions. That doesn't make them "bad" sellers any more than a few undeserved whacko negs do...witholding FB until positive FB is given obviously doesn't assure you of a perfect 100%.
In fact, you withold FB and have 6 negs in over 5,000 transactions and I don't withold FB and have 4 negs in over 5,000 (6,873 total FBs to be exact)...maybe in the long run it doesn't really matter??
We are BOTH good and honest sellers and proud of our work and don't need buyer FB to tell us that!
posted on March 14, 2004 08:51:42 PM new
This "with-holding" baloney is just that: BALONEY!
I donna "with-hold" nada...I just ignore feedback!
If it shows up in my FB, then I reciprocate in kind
The last straw was 18 mos ago when I left a POS & the pretzel-choker told me she didn't have to pay shipping because she could NEG me if she wanted to -- so HA!HA! to me & Ralphie!
posted on March 14, 2004 10:28:09 PM new
100% feed back or 95% feedback is not a indication of how you do business. As I said before If you get a negative respond to it in a truthful manor. If the buyer has time to read the feedback then he/she will read your response. I am not going into my feedback as I hardly every read it. If I would get a negative I probably wouldn't know it for a month or so. I try, try being the objective, to leave feedback when I have left my package at the post office. I have described my item to the best of my knowlege with description and nicks or bumps etc. But I do have a guarantee. I just refunded on a tie I sold that had a spot I didn't see. The buyer dry cleaned it, said it was still there so I refunded the price, postage and drycleaning. Be truthful and it will reap benifits.
posted on March 14, 2004 10:56:41 PM new
As usual, this thread has strayed from the subject the OP posted and has gone into the perpetual discussion of who should leave feedback first, the buyer or the seller. The fact of the matter is, there is no correct answer. Whatever works for you is the best way to go. The point I intended to make in my original post is that feedback is entirely optional. In fact, if a customer is unhappy with an item and leaves no feedback at all, the seller just dodged a neutral or a neg and keeps his total pristeen. The instance brought up by the OP is ,IMHO, an abuse of the feedback system. I am still dissapointed that an Ebay seller thinks this is a "Good policy, I say". It's just not right that a buyer can soil a seller's reputation for something that is optional and has no relation to the actual mechanics of the transaction. The buyer will eventually see how the feedback system should work and hopefully have an attitude adjustment. That's not going to help the seller as that red mark will be with him forever. OTOH, if the buyer doesn't see the light and continues with this attitude, I wonder how long it will take for his feedback total to reach -4 ?
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on March 15, 2004 08:11:48 AM new
If I were to promptly leave glowing feedback that the buyer was a prompt payer, then no one would know know that the buyer had a history of claiming his package was never received and demanding refunds. No onw would know that a buyer commonly claimed the item was not as described and returned another item in it's place. The list could go on. No one would know because my feedback would only say, "...Paid promptly.."
posted on March 15, 2004 10:04:44 AM newYou may find this hard to believe but to some extent I don't sell antiques for only the money. To some extent I have gone beyond the money.
Actually I do believe that.
If you were in it for the money you would be a lot more careful with your descriptions and research. Not a slam, just an observation from an earlier thread. So it is clear that you do not support yourself with your eBay earnings.
I, on the other hand, do.
So there's no point trying to take the moral high ground with me. I'm not interested in the high ground. I'm interested in a better way of life.
