posted on April 13, 2002 08:35:34 AM new
If he IS behind the "suicide" bombings and other attacks, his condemnations are fraudulent and he should be taken into custody and tried just as bin Laden would be. If he IS NOT behind the attacks, then why meet with him as though he would have some control over the fringe groups? At this point meeting with him is totally pointless as there have been attacks before, during and after almost every scheduled sitdown! The fact that Powell made a big show of calling off the meeting until Arafat condemned yesterday's attack and may now reschedule it is sickening. It just shows the extent to which we will go to appease the other countries of the world as to our political correctness.
posted on April 13, 2002 08:53:36 AM new
I got the impression that terrorists who attack others are not really terrorists to Bush.
Maybe if they blow Powell's little behind up that will get his attention.
posted on April 13, 2002 10:14:22 AM new
I think they are meeting with Arafat because there is no one else to meet with. Israel has proposed isolating him and having true elections to find a new leader. That may not be a bad idea, except that the new leader would probably be killed within a week of his/her election.
I think it is time to put Dershowitz's (sp?)plan in gear- for each suicide bombing, take more land from the PLO.
posted on April 13, 2002 10:40:58 AM new
Any US effort to persuade the Palestinians and Israeli's to negoitate with words rather than terrorism is worth a try.
"The remnants of Israel's "peace camp" know that the first step to eradicating Palestinian terror attacks is recognizing that they are a response — however morally abhorrent and politically senseless — to Israel's continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Failure to resolve the conflict produces an unlimited supply of young men willing to turn themselves into human bombs, which means any Israeli military successes against terrorism will be temporary. And it's simply delusional to imagine that just removing Arafat and the Palestinian Authority right now will make Hamas, Islamic Jihad and even the Palestinian leader's own increasingly mutinous Fatah organization any more inclined to desist from acts of violence against Israel."
posted on April 13, 2002 12:05:20 PM new
If Palestinian suicide bombers are "senseless," then how can one negotiate with a senseless adversary? If the attacks are terrorism (and they are) then how can one negotiate with terrorists? Did the U.S. negotiate with Bin Laden?
Israel is perfectly willing to give land for a Palestinian state. But the condition must be that Israel gains some measure of security. It's doubtful that the Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian, Iraqi, etc., terrorist organizations supporting and operating via the PLO will be satisfied with a Palestinian homeland. Israel can't be expected to give up its defensible boders merely on the say-so of terrorists.
Israel has prerequisited peace talks on a cessation of violence. Yet the violence continues. Militarily, for the Palestinians it accomplishes nothing. One can only conclude that the Palestinians and their backers don't want peace. If we give up the Golan Heights and most of Jerusalem for a mere promise of peace, with no other reassurances, that would truly be senseless.
posted on April 13, 2002 05:43:55 PM new
Israel shouldn't give up a blessed thing. It's just as Stusi says, either Arafat has control over these terrorist bombers (and can therefore halt their activities at any time) or he does not. If he does not, there's no point in "negotiating" with him, because he's not in charge. And if he's not in charge, there's NO ONE in charge, and Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, et al, are really running the show and unless we're willing to "negotiate" with terrorist organizations, ( a sticky wicket, given our "zero tolerance, evil empire" stance) there's no point in the token visits by our Secretary of State or Mr. Zinni. What are we hoping to broker? A few months of "peace"? The Israelis and their neighbors have been locked in battle for fifty years. No diplomatic step forward has brought lasting peace. I'll say again what I've expressed elsewhere: let the surrounding Muslim nations absorb the Palestinians and create a viable independent state for them. And then let's see who lobs the first stone into/out of Israel...
posted on April 13, 2002 06:10:03 PM newlet the surrounding Muslim nations absorb the Palestinians and create a viable independent state for them. And then let's see who lobs the first stone into/out of Israel...
Ahh..but you see, they don't WANT them. They have let them rot in their squalid refugee camps within their own countries all the while denying them state medical care, education, jobs, or any financial aid. A little hypocritical don't you think, for people who are so "outraged" over the Palestinian plight.
Arafat doesn't want peace. He wants an all out war. He had an offer for a Palestinian state. He turned it down. Everytime it comes time for "negotiations", Arafat ratchets up the terror. He has to go, or the Palestinians will never get their state.
posted on April 13, 2002 07:04:39 PM new
"Ahh..but you see, they don't WANT them. They have let them rot in their squalid refugee camps within their own countries all the while denying them state medical care, education, jobs, or any financial aid. A little hypocritical don't you think, for people who are so "outraged" over the Palestinian plight."
Yeah, Katy, you know that and I know that but that's not what's heralded by the media trumpets. As far as I'm concerned, the only solution at this point is for the Muslim countries in the region to put out for once and genuinely take up the cause of their Palestinian brethren and stop treating them like gypsies. And if they're not willing to do so, why should Israel?
IMO, the Muslim nations have used the Palestinians to promote their own annihilation agenda against Israel. How nice, for example, that Saddam Hussein gives $25,000 to the family of a terrorist bomber. Is he willing to give that family a place to live, as well?
I've lost all respect for the Muslim nations in the region. None of them really wants (or would honor) peace between themselves and Israel -- they've just gotten "sophisticated" about using the Palestinians to fight their "dirty little war".
posted on April 14, 2002 06:28:45 PM new
It didn't do much good, did it? The more we get involved the worse we are going to look, as it becomes obvious to everyone who has had their collective heads in the abundant Middle Eastern sands that there is always going to be an impasse. Any ceasefire or treaty will always be broken by the most extreme of the extremists! Israel has no choice but to do exactly what we are doing in Afghanistan. Some people just don't get that the "homicide" bombings are all mini-WTC's!
posted on April 14, 2002 07:20:50 PM new
>>Some people just don't get that the "homicide" bombings are all mini-WTC's!<<
The only problem with this is that the WTC disaster was not merely the loss of the privileges of the spoiled and the naiive; it was an unearthly experience. A jungle is pretty much what one expects--a jungle; a desert--the same; a blown up disco, pizzeria, bus, predictable outcome-- but to drop into a set one would only expect maybe in a science fiction movie...
posted on April 14, 2002 07:33:42 PM new
I agree KatyD. There's a very good reason why the Palestinians are acting the way they do. Nobody seems to have cared about their plight. Like anyone wanting attention, if you don't get it on your first attempt, you keep trying until you're heard. Israel has a perfect right to defend itself from any sort of attack, but I sure wonder what method of negotiations they'd be using without the support of the U.S.
posted on April 14, 2002 07:39:03 PM new
"There's a very good reason why the Palestinians are acting the way they do. Nobody seems to have cared about their plight. Like anyone wanting attention, if you don't get it on your first attempt, you keep trying until you're heard."
Krafty, re-read Katy's post. That's not what she said at all...
posted on April 14, 2002 07:50:27 PM new
I think there is also a great fear of the unknown. If they are not dealing with Arafat then with whom shall they be dealing?
It may not seem like it to us but there are a LOT worse to have to deal with than him or Israel would have finished him off last week.
posted on April 14, 2002 07:58:51 PM new
Yeah, Gravid, but if he's not "in charge", then what point dealing with him at all? If it's truly the terrorist organizations calling the shots, then it seems pretty clear to me (given our current "policy" toward terrorist groups) : NO NEGOTIATIONS!
And maybe THIS issue will force Bush toput up or shut up about terrorism,for if he won't tolerate it anywhereelse in "The Axis of Evil", maybehe'll have to commit us to defendingIsrael to "save face".
posted on April 14, 2002 08:53:33 PM new
gravid- Israel does not have to "deal" with anyone in the negotiation sense. Palestine is not a country and the fact that they have a "leader" who is a liar and a terrorist certainly does not require any negotiation. The suggestion that they might then have to sit down with a fringe radical is not even worth addressing. This is another Afghanistan in the sense that Israel has to capture or kill as many of the terrorists as possible. The collateral damage is unfortunate as it always is in war. The U.S. may continue to try to broker a deal but will fail outright or upon a treaty broken by the radical Palestinian fringe.
posted on April 15, 2002 11:33:48 AM new
I do understand the reality of living in one of those camps.
If you speak against any of these groups of gunmen you will be found the next morning hanging from a lamp post.
The population that is not activly against Israel is held hostage by a bunch of thugs.
Most people keep their mouth shut and hope when the armed men fight they can keep their head down and survive.
That is too bad, but I can understand there is nothing outsiders can do if a population is terrified of those with power over it - even if it is more a gang rule than a government. It has to come from within.
posted on April 15, 2002 07:50:57 PM new
Did I miss anything today? I was real busy. Didn't even buy a paper never mind buy one with no chance to read it. Saw pics of Powell and Arafat. I yawned. Should I have not yawned?
posted on April 15, 2002 08:57:50 PM new
Go ahead and yawn.
They came out - sorry - I mean Powell came out Arafat said the snipers might shoot his butt off.
Said the talks were usefull and other neutral - didn'y accomplish a damn thing sort of expressions.
He wants a BIG PowWow with all the neighbors.
palestinians say they will wait to see if it is just another talk about talking.
It would be refreshing if Powell said that he couldn't talk any sense into either of them and to hell with them I'm going home.
posted on April 16, 2002 05:54:13 AM new
>>It would be refreshing if Powell said that he couldn't talk any sense into either of them and to hell with them I'm going home.<<
posted on April 16, 2002 08:41:29 AM new
Rudy Guilliani was interviewed this morning on Good Morning America, along with the prime minister of Lebanon. Although Lebanon is moderate, the PM made a point about suicide bombers, specifically that Palestinians have a choice between dying at the hands of Israeli tanks or dying in suicide bombings. He also repeated the propaganda about 500 killed in Jenin. If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, Israel certainly has the capability to do so.
Guilliani slammed Arafat soundly and suggested repeatedly that U.S. should find another leader to negotiate for the Palestinians. I reckon that U.S. support for Arafat is waning. Despite Bush's strong words after 9-11, Bush is sitting down with terrorists and nations that support terrorism. Bush needs to get with the program. If Bush keeps this up his war on terrorism will fail and he will be out next election.
