gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 12:08:45 PM new
The person suspected of conspiring to produce a "dirty bomb" to spread radioactive material is being held in isolation in a military brig.
This is what I was worried about several months ago when they were doing pretty much what they wanted with the "illegal combatants" - I said that they will do the same to citizens.
Well we are there today.
Ashcroft said Al Muhajir, 31, would be treated as an "enemy combatant" of the
United States, a move that means he has fewer legal rights than an ordinary defendant in a criminal case.
What is to prevent them from stripping any of us of our rights as citizens by simple declaration? - Nothing.
The Bill of rights is a dead instrument. A historic footnote. It only applies when Ashcroft wants it to and you can be stripped of those rights with no conviction - just an accusation you are allied with foreign interests.
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stusi
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posted on June 10, 2002 12:27:32 PM new
gravid- I have several comments: 1. Anyone plotting to set off a WOMD is NOT an "ordinary defendant in a criminal case"! Would you rather they release him on bail?
Screw their rights! We can't pussy foot with these lunatics.
2. I am not a supporter of Ashcroft et al. and do have some serious concerns about their ultra right wing actions- this is not one of them!
3. It is amazing that so soon after the supposed FBI/CIA blunders that they produced this suspect. I think there are many more waiting in the wings.
4. What is preventing "them from stripping any of us of our rights as citizens by simple declaration"? Do you really believe that Dems, Liberals and middle of the road Republicans will watch the Bill of Rights be trampled on? I think not!
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hepburn101
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posted on June 10, 2002 12:29:55 PM new
I heard about this on the morning news, but briefly. Personally, I hope they toss him deep in a cell, rights be damned. Radioactive waste??? Thats scarey. And how many more are there out there that havent been busted yet???
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 12:43:00 PM new
"Do you really believe that Dems, Liberals and middle of the road Republicans will watch the Bill of Rights be trampled on? I think not! "
Do I believe? Read CNN. It is a done deal. They have a US citizen in a military jail with no conviction - no charges in a normal US court of law - just their say so that he is an enemy of the state.
There are laws that cover these activities and can be brought in a Federal court - treason for example. But they have decided to act outside the established law. He was not taken off a battlefield in Afganistan.
The power to take citizens off the street and do what you want with them in secret is too great a power to grant ANYONE.
That means they can do anything they want to him with no public trial and we will never hear what his side was.
When they come for you or your friends you can say - "But I trusted you!"
If it sounds good to you have an amusing naive belief that this new power will never be used against someone for political or economic reasons instead of criminal.
Ashcroft says it is in line with rules of war. WHAT WAR? Congress never declared one.
The constitution does not give Ashcroft or Bush the power to declare one.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 10, 2002 12:54 PM ]
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krs
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posted on June 10, 2002 12:45:31 PM new
You're absolutely right, gravid.
On the sayso of unknown claimed sources that he was 'planning', this guy will be held without any legal recourse for as long as they deem it to be appropriate.
He has apparently done nothing.
How cute of him to make the special point that this was achieved through the cooperative efforts of the FBI, the CIA, and the department of defense.
In a press conference today, Deputy Attorney General Larry
Thompson, FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III and Deputy
Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz briefed reporters on the
suspected dirty bomb plot.
"There were discussions about this possible plan. . . . And it
had not gone as far as we know, much past the discussion
stage, but there were substantial discussions undertaken."
When asked about reports that Washington, D.C., was a
target of an attack, Wolfowitz reiterated that the plan was in
the early stages, adding that intelligence gathered "did
indicated knowledge of the . . . area."
[ edited by krs on Jun 10, 2002 12:52 PM ]
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stusi
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posted on June 10, 2002 01:08:40 PM new
gravid- Do you think the only relevant battlefield is in Afghanistan? Are you forgetting that they brought the war here? WAKE UP!!!
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mlecher
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posted on June 10, 2002 01:09:50 PM new
Gravid, how true it is...
For those of you who think it is right, think carefully. The "accused" did not have any evidence on him. The arrest was made because of information gotten from a high level Al Queda person(who name escapes me at the moment). The information is unverified and no one else heard it except the small group of interogaters. That is the only evidence.
Yet now, a American Citizen now has no right to a lawyer, due process. No one is allowed to gather evidence to the contrary, interview the accuser and every other right we take for granted. They are gone for this individual, because the gov't said, someone else said something.
Can't happen to you, better take off those rose-colored glasses issued to you by the government.....
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 01:12:17 PM new
Then if they snatch you off your driveway in the morning as you go out to work and we never hear what you are charged with or what the crime was and you have no lawyer or public hearing that is OK and we should just trust them that you did something or were planning to do so - right?
You are willing to throw away every protection of law we were given over the full history of our nation and just trust "Daddy' to protect us?
I will do something I have never done on a chat board. Make a personal comment.
FOOL.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 10, 2002 01:23 PM ]
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stusi
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posted on June 10, 2002 01:21:46 PM new
gravid- definitely no reason to call mlecher a fool! BTW- It is apparent that there are those who would rather stand on ceremony regarding rights than err on the side of safety. The first time someone is released and then blows up 1000's of people we will see who is the fool. The consequences are so extreme the rules MUST be changed.
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 01:22:15 PM new
mlecher - Thank you. It is called "hearsay".
And the line will be that we can't even know who is making the accusation because they have to be protected.
Now is the time if you want to ruin anyone just send in anonymous accusations of connections to terrorists. If anyone is of foreign extraction or has been traveling abroad you can make their life hell for the cost of a letter.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 10, 2002 01:35 PM ]
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 01:34:13 PM new
mlecher agreed with me. You are the one I was calling foolish. You scare the crap out of me because I know there are lots like you. You really need to be framed for something you didn't do before you will believe that the police really DO things like that. Well I learned early in life that they do accuse innocent people of crimes if they need a closure and can't find the real criminal or if the person who did it is an "untouchable".
I was just lucky I beat the rap. But I had my day in court. This guy is for all practical purposed convicted by decree.
All of a sudden all the basic rules that have served for justice are obsolete and unworkable? I think not. This is a power play plain and simple and I am starting to be afraid that when it comes time for elections there may be such an emergency they can't be held. I see martial law and it scares me.
Same crap Hitler pulled in the 30's - give me power and I will protect us. Sure......He was fanning the fires to cause most of the problems.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 10, 2002 01:40 PM ]
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hepburn101
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posted on June 10, 2002 01:43:48 PM new
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/chicagosuspect020610.html
courtesy of another board.
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antiquary
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posted on June 10, 2002 02:02:09 PM new
Orwell's Thought Police?
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krs
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posted on June 10, 2002 02:04:41 PM new
"Experts say a dirty bomb would cause significant damage, and possible loss
of life from the conventional explosion. But generally the impact of the
radiation release would be isolated.
However, the experts warned that most cities are not prepared to deal with
the psychological impact. Cities could expect to see hospitals overrun with
thousands of fearful patients; businesses shut down for months, with billions in
lost revenue; and increased levels of domestic and substance abuse as
residents cope with stress. "
Oh dear.
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 02:04:51 PM new
reading between the lines -
"The attorney general said al Qaeda apparently believed that Muhajir would be permitted to travel freely within the United States because of his U.S. citizenship and because he carried a U.S. passport."
Internal passports for travel to other states anyone? I can see stopping cars with out of state plates and searching them. If you decided to drive instead of fly to avoid the hassle wouldn't that even things up?
To expand on what krs and antiquery said - I get the sense you don't need to DO anything to be a threat to to government now - you just need to know how and you are considered a danger. Too bad the military trained so many in the arts of demolition and improvision.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 10, 2002 02:28 PM ]
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krs
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posted on June 10, 2002 02:47:29 PM new
Every time this administration comes under the gun there's a diversion.
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Helenjw
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posted on June 10, 2002 03:18:55 PM new
Military officials have not decided whether to charge Mujahir or what charges to file.
It's being suggested that this story is being used as a diversion for the news story today that alleges that the Bush Administration knew about the
bioterrorist anthrax attacks. White House staff members were given Cipro Sept.11, weeks before the anthrax attacks were made public.
Helen
Antiquary and Snowyegret discovered this news yesterday.
[ edited by Helenjw on Jun 10, 2002 03:22 PM ]
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REAMOND
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posted on June 10, 2002 03:28:24 PM new
By joining/conspiring with a foreign power in using force against the US,you forfeit your citizenship, this law has been around for a long time.
However, the accused should have a civil hearing to determin if the charges are true BEFORE citizenship is taken away.
It was an option for John Walker to have his citizenship taken away, but it wasn't exercised by the US govt - yet.
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stusi
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posted on June 10, 2002 03:36:25 PM new
There were approximately 4000 AlQaeda around the world at the time of the 9/11 attacks. We have reported that about 1000 were accounted for in Afghanistan. What are we supposed to do with the other 3000? Bring them in when captured, set bail, and try them with all the rights of the U.S. criminal system? I am sorry, gravid, that you apparently were arrested for something you did not do. Sh*t happens. You are so jaded now that you would compromise national security. This guy was trained by the AlQaeda, and was fingered by Zubaydah which led to his arrest. This guy is at least a bonafide operative and at worst a potential murderer.
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 04:04:38 PM new
I really doubt that many of the 3,000 unaccounted al Qaeda are US citizens, but that doesn't matter anymore.
I am no longer going to post on political issues. If people can be pulled off the street like this and made to disappear without charges it is too dangerous to be highly visible or to exercise free speech. When they declare martial law there will probably be a big round-up. I am intimidated and don't have the resources to mount a huge legal defence or flee the country. Carry on and the best to all of you.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 10, 2002 04:22 PM ]
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snowyegret
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posted on June 10, 2002 04:07:46 PM new
Welcome to the banana republic.
Why could he not be tried in open court with the evidence presented and weighed as is his right as a US citizen? This is all too familiar.
ODE TO BROKEN THINGS
Things get broken
at home
like they were pushed
by an invisible, deliberate smasher.
It's not my hands
or yours
It wasn't the girls
with their hard fingernails
or the motion of the planet.
It wasn't anything or anybody
It wasn't the wind
It wasn't the orange-colored noontime
Or night over the earth
It wasn't even the nose or the elbow
Or the hips getting bigger
or the ankle
or the air.
The plate broke, the lamp fell
All the flower pots tumbled over
one by one. That pot
which overflowed with scarlet
in the middle of October,
it got tired from all the violets
and another empty one
rolled round and round and round
all through winter
until it was only the powder
of a flowerpot,
a broken memory, shining dust.
And that clock
whose sound
was
the voice of our lives,
the secret
thread of our weeks,
which released
one by one, so many hours
for honey and silence
for so many births and jobs,
that clock also
fell
and its delicate blue guts
vibrated
among the broken glass
its wide heart
unsprung.
Life goes on grinding up
glass, wearing out clothes
making fragments
breaking down
forms
and what lasts through time
is like an island on a ship in the sea,
perishable
surrounded by dangerous fragility
by merciless waters and threats.
Let's put all our treasures together
-- the clocks, plates, cups cracked by the cold --
into a sack and carry them
to the sea
and let our possessions sink
into one alarming breaker
that sounds like a river.
May whatever breaks
be reconstructed by the sea
with the long labor of its tides.
So many useless things
which nobody broke
but which got broken anyway.
Pablo Neruda
You have the right to an informed opinion
-Harlan Ellison
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stockticker
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posted on June 10, 2002 04:22:49 PM new
Gravid, I'm a little confused.
On one hand you appear to be saying that is wrong for others to succumb to their fears (of being killed) and allow their rights to be stripped away.
On the other hand, you are also stating that you are succumbing to your own fears and will no longer exercise your right of free speech because it is "too dangerous".
So you berate others for giving in to their fears but feel it is O.K. to succumb to your own?
Doesn't that strike you as a tad hypocritical?
Irene
(edited for spelling)
[ edited by stockticker on Jun 10, 2002 04:31 PM ]
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 04:36:03 PM new
Yes it is cowardly. I just don't have the energy or money to buck the powers that be in a public forum. So I am going to cut some risk.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 10, 2002 04:39 PM ]
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stockticker
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posted on June 10, 2002 04:41:08 PM new
Gravid, then when you word your opinions, have a little compassion for those who have a sincere fear of dying.
Irene
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Helenjw
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posted on June 10, 2002 04:45:01 PM new
stusi
A potential murderer? Surely you're not serious that someone could be charged with being a potential murderer? LOL!!!
Helen
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Helenjw
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posted on June 10, 2002 04:47:52 PM new
fear of dying now? This is becoming too funny.
Gravid it looks like your guidance is needed.
Get back here!
Helen
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gravid
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posted on June 10, 2002 05:13:50 PM new
I am completely at a loss as to who has a sincere and an unsincere fear of dying.
I have a fear of being locked up more than dying. I don't have any big defense funds that would come to my aid. I just don't want to have my head stuck out. I would have been one of those people who left Germany about 1937 because they could see the trouble coming. Forget staying and fighting the system. That would not have worked in that case no matter how noble, and I don't think it will do any good here and now. Survive.
The best you know how.
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Borillar
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posted on June 10, 2002 05:37:08 PM new
stusi, I'd be interested to know at what point, place, or event it is that you believe that a Citizen of the United States of America can have their Bill or Rights protections stripped away from them by a government beaurcrat? I'm just curious.
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dman3
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posted on June 10, 2002 05:44:35 PM new
What exsactly was it you all though Home land security was about ????
terrorist are not just in the middle east and they are not just muslim some are Americans here and other places there is no war declared on afgan but there is a war aganist terrorist no different and even more serious then the war on drugs.
http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
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Borillar
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posted on June 10, 2002 05:45:46 PM new
"The attorney general said al Qaeda apparently believed that Muhajir would be permitted to travel freely within the United States because of his U.S. citizenship and because he carried a U.S. passport. Muhajir, a 31-year-old native of Brooklyn, N.Y., moved to Chicago at age 4.
-from the news link above-
OK, it's settled. The man is in fact a U.S. Citizen and is charged with a crime that he has not committed and so, has had all of his U.S. Constitutional Bill of Rights stripped away from him.
Tell me, after almost all of the federal-level policing agencies are merged together under the new cabinet post, how much longer do you think it will be before they start rounding up other citizens and denying them their rights?
And what will happen to the next group of protestors? "You have the inaliable Right of Dissent."
Gone.
Tell me, Democrats: if your politicans are FOR America and Americans, the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, why aren't they raising a fuss about this? What is the point of having them in Congress if they won't go to bat for us?
If they won't go to bat for this guy, to at least get him his Rights back, then what will they do for YOU when someone points a finger at you?
Someone mentioned revolution and how scarey it would be. Would it be as scarey as the nightmare world coming right for us?
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