posted on October 9, 2002 05:35:06 AM new
I mentioned that NPR had a small segment about the Bush administration going into libraries and removing scientific materials a couple weeks ago. After a conversation with our librarian, because our library will no longer keep information on our favorite reads, I found this on their website:
Note: All are links to other parts of their site. Very interesting.
"w In the News: FBI in Your Library w ALA Policy on Governmental Intimidation w The Attorney General’s Guidelines w Terrorism Information and Prevention System (TIPS) w USA Patriot Act w Library Awareness Program w Counterintelligence Program (Cointelpro) w Privacy: An Interpretation of the Library Bill of Rights w Other Sources w In Defense of Freedom w Bottom w"
Edited to add ALA name. It isn't Librarian's Assoc. It is Library Assoc.
[ edited by aposter on Oct 9, 2002 05:39 AM ]
[ edited by aposter on Oct 9, 2002 05:41 AM ]
posted on October 9, 2002 06:37:42 AM new
Libraries are dangerous places now. They carry information and ideas.
Aposter, can you give me an idea on what your local library is not carrying anymore? I'm curious, because I have noticed a few magazines have disappeared off the shelves of our local stores, and they are no longer stocking them. A couple of them concerned alternative health, which hardly seems like a dangerous topic. I use my local library for books, and haven't noticed changes there.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on October 9, 2002 08:09:00 AM new
As a librarian this aspect of Bush's "Patriot" (Ha!) Act especially infuriates me.
Under it, if the FBI searches through our records it is illegal for me to even mention that they've done so to anyone. Yep, I could go to jail. Well, guess what? This isn't something I would keep quiet about... Life is hard. And then you die
posted on October 9, 2002 09:04:46 AM new
Well, I think that I will go to the library to check out some subversive literature such as alternative medicine. lol
posted on October 9, 2002 10:32:46 AM new
Hi Snowy,
I don't know if our library has excluded anything Bush and crew wants.
I am just happy the library has decided to do away with listing people's favorites. I never understood why it was needed. I am perfectly capable of making lists myself. I suspect it is a statement against what is happening. Our library system is huge and would probably be of interest to the little dictator at some point.
There are volunteers and library board members who may have something to say. Can't lose their jobs, they work for free in the first place.
I only heard the one NPR segment about Bush's group removing items of scientific nature and they said librarians were keeping track of what was being removed. I think it was on Morning Edition a couple weeks ago.
If the Sunshine-Project.org people are correct and Bush is pushing bio-weapons they
may be removing items that will incriminate the administration, not just helpful information terrorists can use.
Has anyone heard any more on network or cable news about libraries taking a stand or Bush's group deleting info?
posted on October 9, 2002 10:49:23 AM new
From aposter's link above:
"Liberty is the most precious gift we offer our citizens."
Could Tom Ridge have said anything scarier or more telling as he accepted the post of homeland security czar? Trying to strike the bell of liberty, he sounds its death knell, depicting government not as the agent of the people's will, but as an imperious power with the authority to give us our democratic freedoms. Which means, of course, that it can also take them away.
That's exactly what Ashcroft, Bush, Cheney & co. have been up to all year as, in the attorney general's words, the government has marshaled the might of "every available statute" to root out "the terrorists among us." Wrapping themselves in the flag, they have shredded the Constitution. They have sneered at, ignored, or defied the courts and legislatures that are designed to provide checks and balances on uninhibited executive power. They have eroded the precious Bill of Rights protections of free speech, assembly, and association and its assurances of privacy, due process, equal protection, legal counsel, and a fair trial—practically everything but the right to bear arms.
Thanks to these maneuvers in the name of combating terrorism, the government can now freeze the release of public records, monitor political and religious gatherings, and jail Americans indefinitely without trial and without legal representation. As Bush and Cheney ready the country for war against Iraq, they have established a climate that stifles dissent—and put laws in place enabling them to clamp down on those who ask too many questions.
It is these subtle differences in perspective that are missed by the likes of our detractors here in the RT. That we see the difference and are chided and ridiculed on a regualr basis for it, or are asked to explain it to them. I personally feel that anyone not able to see the difference between the attitudes held by our curent leaders in Washington and what is wrong with them holding those attitudes is unlikely to be able to comprehend what the problem is.
posted on October 9, 2002 01:05:26 PM newI personally feel that anyone not able to see the difference between the attitudes held by our curent leaders in Washington and what is wrong with them holding those attitudes is unlikely to be able to comprehend what the problem is.
Yes, that's exactly it. Doesn't leave us much room for hope, does it. The founding fathers were truly great men, as greatness was once known. Very intelligent, and some even brilliant men, whose principles and visions overcame the temptations of power and greed, whose rationality suppressed personal ego and extreme ideologies in order to come together to form a blueprint for building the greatest society that the world has known. But its care and maintenance is dependent upon the people and as its foundations crumble, few even notice and few of those even care.
posted on October 9, 2002 01:06:54 PM new
Speaking of those detractors....where are they??? I thought they would graviate here in droves to put a super-spin on these facts.
What do they do with the books they "confiscate." I think a nice touch would be to pile them on the front lawn of the librry and set them on fire. All the while paid "Bush supporters" standing around chanting "All Heil Bush, Our Lord and Protector!" I hear brown shirts will be in vogue next year.
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 9, 2002 01:09 PM ]
posted on October 9, 2002 03:16:34 PM new
The public library in my town just sent a flier last week, promoting its "biggest book sale ever!" later on this month. I'm wondering if all those banned books and periodicals will be among the items offered...
Slightly off-topic: Apparently, a cottage industry has come into being to enable financial institutions to comply with The Patriot Act. Sybase and Innovative Systems, Inc. (just two of many) are offering "software solutions" that enable corporations to track and report "suspicious" transactions in real time.
posted on October 9, 2002 03:19:15 PM new
Also from that link above:
"Polls have shown that at least 40 percent of Americans are willing to give up some civil liberties for the sake of security . . ."
Good for them!
The problem is that they insist on us giving up ours as well!
Like I've suggested before: those of you who want to feel safer by giving up your civil rights, why don't you go do just that? Go down to the court house and make yourself declared a non-citizen of the United States and then you can feel safer for it. Better yet, why don't you have your politicians make a bill that allows you to give up part or all of your civil rights in order to feel safer and those of us who refuse to give any of them up will be left alone!
Of course, that wouldn't make them happy. It's not enough that they are so willing to give up their freedoms to the state - they INSIST that if they are going to do it, then everyone else has to be forced to do it as well! They're too damned chicken to just go give up their rights - they have to make everyone else suffer as well!
No, for those of you who want to give up your civil rights, it's as easy as getting your citizenship removed in order to loose them without demanding that everyone else screw themselves as well. Just ask Bush - he's given himself the power to do it without judicial oversight. That ought to make you feel warm all over! It leaves me cold. Just leave the rest of us alone!
posted on October 9, 2002 03:52:54 PM new
The problem with giving up civil liberties is it improves no one's safety. When I think of dictatorships where civil liberties were curtailed such as Argentina, Chile, Italy, Spain, Russia, and some others just in this century, the general populace was eventually treated as the *enemy*, or sent to fight a war, which doesn't improve anyone's safety.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on October 9, 2002 06:58:14 PM new
I'd rather live in fear of a foreign terrorist strking than living in fear that our own government will come kicking down my doors in the middle of the night and I'll be "dissappeared"!
Just as that of the many, many tens of millions of innocent civilians in many countries this last century! You can go to those countries now and go see the mass graves of those who gave up their civil rights to the state!
posted on October 9, 2002 07:42:05 PM newaposter:Has anyone heard any more on network or cable news about libraries taking a stand or Bush's group deleting info?
The ALA advises libraries to do the following:
1) Avoid creating unnecessary records. Only record a user’s personally identifiable information when necessary for the efficient operation of the library.
2) Avoid retaining records that are not needed for efficient operation of the library. Check with your local governing body to learn if there are laws or policies addressing record retention and in conformity with these laws or policies, develop policies on the length of time necessary to retain a record. Assure that all kinds and types of records are covered by the policy, including data-related logs, digital records, and system backups.
3) Be aware of library practices and procedures that place information on public view; e.g., the use of postcards for overdue notices or requested materials, staff terminals placed so that the screens can be read by the public, sign-in sheets to use computers or other devices, and the provision of titles of reserve requests or interlibrary loans provided over the telephone to users’ family members or answering machines.
It also gives advice on how to react when presented with search warrants & subpoenas (lots of roadblocks). But even they say that subpoenas issued under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) (USA Patriot Act amendment) must be complied with, even to the gag order.
BTW--that gag order pertains to BOOK STORES, too!
http://www.abffe.org/
"The American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression (ABFFE) has filed a request under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)in an attempt to learn how many subpoenas have been issued to bookstores, libraries and newspapers under the U.S.A. PATRIOT Act. The Justice Department has refused to make this information public despite a request by the House Judiciary Committee. "The PATRIOT Act gives the Justice Department the power to investigate the reading habits of American citizens," ABFFE President Chris Finan said. "We want to make sure this power isn’t abused." "
ABFFE is deeply concerned by the potential chilling effect of court orders issued to booksellers under Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act. Normally, when a bookseller receives a subpoena for customer information, he or she has the opportunity to ask the court to quash the order on First Amendment grounds. In several cases, booksellers have successfully resisted subpoenas. Under the Section 215, however, booksellers may not have this chance. Depending on the wording of the order, the bookseller may be required to immediately turn over the records that are being sought.
In addition, there is a gag provision preventing booksellers from alerting anyone to the fact that the have received an order, making it nearly impossible to determine whether this new power is being abused.
The Colorado Supreme Court has reversed a court decision that required Denver's Tattered Cover Book Store to turn over information about books purchased by one of its customers. In a decision by all six of the participating justices, the Supreme Court ruled that the search warrant issued to the Tattered Cover violated both the First Amendment and the Colorado Constitution's guarantee of free expression. "Had it not been for the Tattered Cover's steadfast stance, the zealousness of the City would have led to the disclosure of information that we ultimately conclude is constitutionally protected," the Court declared on April 8.
In its 53-page decision, the Court said that search warrants targeting bookseller records pose such a grave threat to free expression that in the future they should only be issued after a hearing at which the bookseller has an opportunity to oppose them. "Search warrants directed to bookstores, demanding information about the reading history of customers, intrude upon the First Amendment rights of customers and bookstores because compelled disclosure of book-buying records threatens to destroy the anonymity upon which many customers depend," the Court said.
posted on October 10, 2002 06:08:26 AM new
Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said,"
"Those who are willing give up their liberty for security deserve neither."
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on October 10, 2002 07:00:03 AM new "The Sheridan Libraries recognize the confidentiality of information sought or received, and resources consulted, borrowed, or acquired by a library user. These materials may include database search records, circulation records, interlibrary loan records and other personally identifiable uses of library materials, facilities, programs or services, such as reference interviews. Accordingly, the Sheridan Libraries will not disclose such information except as required by applicable law."
Most libraries have a policy such as the one above, updated a few months ago.
posted on October 14, 2002 09:31:00 PM new
Yet another Liberal paranoid thread that results in much ado about nothing. NPR is the "leftist radio station". It feeds plenty of its own brand of propaganda to the public. You can find anything you want to know about anything in the United States, whether it be in the library or on the internet. No one is removing books. Just because someone types up somthing on a library link means its true? Hardly.
posted on October 14, 2002 09:41:32 PM new
The Patriot Act doesn't involve removing books from bookshelves, no. But it does have a chilling effect on library patrons in that it totally takes away their privacy--and then gags librarians. So essentially people will never know when or if they are being spied upon.
However, others try to get books removed all the time. Groups & individuals constantly try to get books removed from library shelves. It all boils down to the idea that if *they* don't like something it should be removes so no one else will have access to it either. Life is hard. And then you die
posted on October 14, 2002 10:17:00 PM new
If a person comes into the library, repeatedly to read books on bombmaking or explosives wouldn't it be prudent of the librarian to take note of this? Perhaps if there were not certain people trying to blow up the country, the need for surveillance in librarys would not be needed at this time. But it would only be common sense to monitor the activity of certain books that deal with explosives. It is no more an invasion of my privacy than censoring people to view pornagraphic images on the computer in a public facility such as a library.
on a personal note, you life is hard and then you die, is a rather sad commentary on your view of life. I'm glad I don't think like that. Maybe its just a joke and I'm not getting it! good for me!
[ edited by artdoggy on Oct 14, 2002 10:26 PM ]
posted on October 14, 2002 10:42:05 PM new
>If a person comes into the library, repeatedly to read books on bombmaking or explosives wouldn't it be prudent of the librarian to take note of this?
No.
First of all, librarians are not the Secret Police. The second is that making bomb materials, picking locks, and other material that is helpful to criminals and terrorist-minded individuals has long, long ago been pulled from the shelves. I dare you to find even one single public library that will tell you how to make a chemical bomb of any sort, other than through a story. You won't find any. Try it. I did years ago, just to see what was available. You can't get any of that nifty stuff at the public library. And our local public library has well over 1 million printed books in stock! (Multnomah County Library, Portland, Oregon)
So, artdoggy, since they, those who made those new laws know this, why did they make that provision? Why are they spying on reading habits of people if the library has nothing in it that can be used by a criminal, terrorist, or madman?? I want to hear your answer so I can understand why.
posted on October 14, 2002 11:39:18 PM newIf a person comes into the library, repeatedly to read books on bombmaking or explosives wouldn't it be prudent of the librarian to take note of this?
The last time I looked, I hadn't been issued a badge or given any law enforcement powers. That's not my job. So the answer to your question is "no."
And by your logic, I should have to be making reports on people you check out or ask for books & magazines on guns all the time. Which would be 90% of male children 8-12 who come into the library. Literally.
How 'bout folks wanting to look at books on drugs? Gardening? (you never know, they might be growing marijuana or opium poppies)
There's a book for mystery writers on poisons & their effects--should I flag who uses that? Car Repair Manuals--who knows, maybe they're larning how to cut brake lines or other types of sabotage. Child abuse? You never know, that person may be a pervert! How 'bout that suspicious person who checked out a stack of Halloween books? Might be a Satanist planning sinister things... Oh, you want to check out books about Planned Parenthood? What if someone dumps a fetus or newborn under a hedge? You just might find yourself being interrogated after a search of library records brings up your name & you'll be answering the whys & wherefores you wanted that book in the first place. And don't think that that is inconcievable--a Planned Parenthood clinic fended off just such a search of their records a couple of weeks back in the same circumstance.
I could go on & on. The thing about it is, the FBI & law enforcement no longer, under the Patriot Act, even have to show just cause to search these records. The mere suspicion will allow them access. Suspicion? Hah! They are now free to go on "fishing trips."
And people, being the sheep they are, will happily go along with this until *they* are directly affected by it. THEN they'll scream bloddy murder. Life is hard. And then you die
posted on October 15, 2002 05:57:56 AM new
Several books have come out recently regarding the Taliban, A-Q, Osama Bin Laden, etc... If you ever checked out or purchased one of those books, you now are subject to intense investigation under the "Patriots Act." I work in a bookstore, I have seen these books and I know people who have purchased these books. It doesn't make me feel REAL safe knowing the the Govt. can come and demand the names of all the people who purchased these books.
But Borillar and bunnicula. No, we have not been issued a badge nor are we secret police. But we do have a responsibility to remain observent because "All that is required for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing." If you saw an individual waiting at a bus stop with a bomb strapped to his chest, would you just say "That's not my job?" But we all must be intelligent about it and not be the grumpy old fart in the house on the corner reporting everything strange except himself...
But it is still good to know that there are still a few people like us who believe that Liberty and Freedom for everyone else is more important than OUR security. Too bad so many other think the opposite, that their security requires that we lose OUR liberty and freedoms...
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on October 15, 2002 06:15:55 AM new
Its quite obvious that logic has escaped reason on this thread. I'm not going to argue the point of why someone who enters a library on a repeated basis to pour over bomb making books should be worthy of taking note of. It seems quite obvious to me.
As far as you patting on yourself that you are somehow the moral champions of standing up for freedom, that is quite laughable. Freedom also lies in the abilty to defend it. Defending our country is no longer limited to landwars it comes in many different levels now. I hardly doubt anyone checking out a book on a the Taliban is going to be locked up. In fact I think I will go check one out today.
[ edited by artdoggy on Oct 15, 2002 06:30 AM ]
posted on October 15, 2002 08:18:53 AM new
>I'm not going to argue the point of why someone who enters a library on a repeated basis to pour over bomb making books should be worthy of taking note of.
Of course you aren't! You won't because you can't. You can't because there are no bomb-making books in any public libraries. Therefore, you have no point to make on that subject.
>As far as you patting on yourself that you are somehow the moral champions of standing up for freedom
Those are not my words. I come here to be entertained, and in doing so, express my thoughts on given subjects. That I consider myself an American Patriot, rather than a patriotic American is my business. That I would sooner defend the United States Constitution than protect you from terrorists and other unseen bogymen in countries half-way around the world should give you little comfort no doubt. That protecting the United States Constitution also requires a personal sacrifice of blood from time to time is something that not most people do not realize, just as much as the ideals behind our American Ideals of Liberty and Freedom need to be fought each and every new generation. The enemy is not terrorists, it is ignorance and compliancy. IMO.
sp.
[ edited by Borillar on Oct 15, 2002 12:00 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2002 09:03:57 AM new
I also consider myself to be an American Patriot but I don't want my love of liberty and freedom to be used against me!
There are probably not books per se that are called "bomb making 101" but there is much information in the libraries that can inform people on how to construct explosvive devices".
My frustration with some Americans is that their supposed love of liberty and freedom really can be reduced to a juvenille fixation of resenting authority figures and acting out against them rather than using intelligence and common sense in evaluation to what is a credible threat to liberty, justice and freedom. I abhor censorship but there are some variables within our society now that our founding fathers and mothers could have never dreamt! Easy access to vile pornagraphic images on computers for one! debasing, sicko stuff that an innocent child can run into totally by accident while online. The public library should have their computers censor this material. I have no problem with it at all, but there are some people who want no censorship of any kind. This type of mindset it worse to me because it causes society to compromise its collective morality and sense of protection to children in our society. Freedom has been confused with permissiveness and ego centric indulgence for many people. Freedom is a definition that defines only themselves in relationship to society.
[ edited by artdoggy on Oct 15, 2002 09:06 AM ]
posted on October 15, 2002 09:05:51 AM newFreedom also lies in the abilty to defend it. Defending our country is no longer limited to landwars it comes in many different levels now.
Isn't that about the dumbest thing you ever heard...
You defend countries with wars. Of course, you NORMALLY defend yourself only when attacked, but not according to Bush & Big Oil Logic, but I digress. You defend Liberty and Freedom by NOT GIVING THEM UP! You defend a lifestyle by LIVING IT! It was "Give me Liberty or Give me Death!", not Give me Liberty when it is safe to do so....
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on October 15, 2002 09:11:37 AM new
mmmm...let reduce it to the most basic terms here. The Hussin attacked Kuwait. He closed his doors to weapon inspectors...mmmm does that mean he might be making a weapon? do you want to wait until he is finished making his nukes, let him blow up New York and then go to war? or would you rather just die shouting give me liberty or give me death in that big radioactive mushroom cloud in the sky?
posted on October 15, 2002 11:48:25 AM new
So why don't you go a hide in your little world because od the "might happen, could happen" Let me clue you in to something, it hasn't happened. Yes, someone is planning something somewhere for sometime but I won't let rule my life and I don't want it ruling my country's direction. Go live in your paranoid world with your paranoid thought with the rest of the paranoid people and leaders. Let it RULE your lives! The rest of us here will stay and live a long and prosperous lives without your fearmongering and saber rattling.
Go hide, you haven't got a clue what the world is all about....
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on October 15, 2002 12:00:42 PM new
well your post is quite heroic and I applaud you effort to stay true to your course of the pursuit of liberty. But on a more practical level, if you had evidence that your car was going to have a major engine problem, if you heard the knocks and the rattlings, would you investigate the problem? would you take the responsiblity to acknowledge that your vehicle could be in danger of engine failure? or would you drive merrily along and live in denial that your car could blow up on you?
I see you attitude as denial. I don't see my attitude toward the current situation as "saber rattling". I see my outlook as an observation that lends itself to evaluation of the past evidence of a dictator whose administration is corrupt. Quite to the contrary am I paranoid. Paranoia would mean my fears are unfounded and without evidence. There is a mountain of evidence against this man. So I conclude from the evidence that he is indeed a danger to my liberty, to my freedom and to my country men.
[ edited by artdoggy on Oct 15, 2002 12:03 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2002 12:13:27 PM new
artdoggy, the problem here is the attack on our Constitutional Rights. That your Constitutional rights have been taken away from you -- doesn't that bother you in the least? Not only have your Rights been infringed upon of late, but many Rights have been totally steamrolled over by this government of ours. That you are not aware of this fact (and others) is typical of most Americans and the media has been truly slow in informing this nation to those facts.
Do you enjoy the fact that now we have one massive police agency with much of the same total and secretive powers that the KGB in the old Soviet Union used to enjoy? What? You weren't paying attention to that either? Typical American.
If the hood of your car was squeaking and also your radiator was about to blow-up, which one would you pay attention to? Saddam is the squeaking hood, the radiator is the United States Constitution, which has already been mostly destroyed since Bush took over. Do you feel safer now, knowing that the real danger to Americans and America lies right here at home?
posted on October 15, 2002 12:28:50 PM new
Got news for ya, Artdoggy. Pronography was big business in Colonial times--had been for hundreds of years. Pamphlets, books, artwork--all available. Children could be exposed to it quite easily. So the founding fathers were quite familiar with & able to deal with that situation. Life is hard. And then you die
