posted on March 9, 2004 04:00:14 PM new
I have been pondering this question for a long time and I have come to this conclusion.
This is a story about the Johnson Family. Johnson Wax. A family owned business. Started by Herbert then handed down to Samuel, then to his son and now the grandson and granddaughter. A company that has employed many. Why should they give up their wealth. I don't understand. A family that has worked hard for their money. We all have the opportunity to be wealthy, it is how you proceed is the outcome of your wealth. We need to take responsibility for our actions. I have never understood take from the wealthy and give to the people who don't want to work. Doesn't seem right.
posted on March 9, 2004 04:38:36 PM new
But if there are more poor people than rich people it buys votes.
According to some people here the majority should have it's way - that is all that makes something right - so if people want to kill criminals as punishment or wage war for economic gain - why not strip their fellow citizens of their wealth too?
posted on March 9, 2004 06:57:00 PM new
Libra - I agree. And even if kerry should get elected, he'd still need the cooperation of the Republican Congress to get tax increases passed.
But it does surpise me how many are willing to vote for this liberal who tells them he wants to raise their taxes.
Maybe gravid's right.
But it still might make a difference to a lot of voters in CA, maybe NY where two incomes over $200,000.00 are not so unusual. I'm sure they don't consider themselves RICH.
posted on March 9, 2004 09:09:55 PM newI have never understood take from the wealthy and give to the people who don't want to work.
You make it sound as if those of us who haven't become wealthy are lazy layabouts. I make a fairly good income but am certainly not rich or well-to-do. And I pay out a lot in taxes. Should a rich person be able to get away with paying less than I do percentage-wise?
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on March 9, 2004 09:13:27 PM new
Maybe I missed something out here in the sticks...wouldn't be the first time god knows. Is the Johnson family being asked to give up their fortune? If so, by whom?
On the one hand, my personal opinion of income tax is that it punishes productivity. I'd like to see a national sales tax, and have income tax done away with altogether. If we want to punish something with tax, let's punish spendthrifts who buy more than they can reasonably afford to. Let's nail them with federal sales tax.
On the other hand, I'd much rather vote for a man who is honest about telling me I need to pay more in taxes than a man who hasn't got the cojones to tell me he's mortgaging my grandchildren's economic future with an obscene deficit.
___________________________________
posted on March 9, 2004 09:53:59 PM newlet's punish spendthrifts
Spendthrifts and the rich are good for the economy.
No to a sales tax. There should be a flat national income tax of 15% on all income after the first $15,000. The tax rate should be the same for everyone and absolutely no deductions or credits for anything/anyone.
posted on March 10, 2004 05:09:04 AM new I have never understood take from the wealthy and give to the people who don't want to work.
Geesh, Libra, what a terrible statement to make. So are you saying that those working and living at or below the poverty level are lazy and don't want to work so that's why they're not rich? So, that middle aged man handing you your bag of McDonald's is too lazy to work anywhere else?
The children of this wealthy family-run business probably don't have a clue. They didn't work hard to start this business, it was handed to them. They've never had to struggle and will never know what it's like to work 40 hours and still go to bed hungry. They're the same ones that were jumping out windows when the depression hit.
Percentage-wise, the poor do pay more taxes. They have less of the opportunities afforded the rich. Certainly, their children aren't attending Harvard. In fact, they are lucky if their children get to go at all. Poverty is cycled from parents to children to grandchildren and until we figure out how to break that cycle, it will continue.
I don't blame the ills of the poor on the rich, but they've certainly done nothing to help. Instead of throwing the breaks their way, we should do more to educate the children of the poor. We should improve the inner-city schools and provide proper health care to those who are working and cannot afford it on their own. We should assist in providing proper shelter and reducing crime in the impoverished areas (instead of looking the other way). The parents as well as the children need to be educated about life. The welfare system has let these people down. Rather than helping them to lift themselves out of poverty, it has taught them how to stay there. The county where I live is in deep doodoo for not living up to the promise they made to assist those coming off welfare in finding jobs. The money given to this country for that very task went somewhere else. I think it's just become easier for us to blame the poor for their own ills.
It's great if you've worked hard all your life and you've become wealthy. These days it's more the luck of the draw. There are millions upon millions of people like me who have worked hard all their lives and will still not get rich. We'll still struggle each and every day. Luck of the draw.
Giving the rich more opportunities than you give the poor - that's not living up to "all men are created equal." It's subtle form of discrimination, IMO.
posted on March 10, 2004 06:07:17 AM new
Perhaps instead of having a tax on income, the country should have an expense tax - tax on what we spend. The tax on $100,000 jaguar would be a lot more than a $10,000 Kia Rio.
The wealthy spend a lot more on luxury items than those just trying to make end meet. This only seems fair in my opinion.
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge.
posted on March 10, 2004 07:43:17 AM new
Cheryl, everyone has an opportunity, however most people often choose a path that leads them to where they are today...
I agree with the flat income tax, no forms to fill out, no refunds...
posted on March 10, 2004 09:40:09 AM newKraft bonuses: $10M amid layoffs
Food maker has to lay off 6,000 workers and close 20 plants, but execs still got paid big bonuses.
Yeah we shouldn't tax these guys, they are an asset to our country and create jobs.
I can't believe some of the suckers on this board that accept the tripe put out by Rush Limbaugh and others about the picked on rich in this country.
They use tax payer supported institutions and facilities everyday, that working people pay for, to make their millions, and they shouldn't pay a progressive tax on that income ?
It is far better for our country and our economy to tax a millionaire at 50% than to tax a working family at 20%.
posted on March 10, 2004 10:19:49 AM newGee-sh, Libra, what a terrible statement to make. So are you saying that those working and living at or below the poverty level are lazy and don't want to work so that's why they're not rich? So, that middle aged man handing you your bag of McDonald's is too lazy to work anywhere else?
First thing I don't eat McDonalds so I don't know who works there. But I do look at their help wanted ads and one McDonald's in our area pays $10.00 an hour. I think the cheapest wage for a McDonalds employee is $7.00 an hour.
Yes I am saying they are basically lazy. Everyone has an equal chance in this country. I will tell you my education was FREE. Of course there is no free now. I made a very good living. I worked 45 years. So did my husband. My daughter has the same work standards as we do. That is what good upbringing is. If you are brought up on welfare with no ambition then that is where most stay all their lives and it goes on for generation. I owe nobody a living but myself. I am tired of people saying they don't have the same opportunities as the next. Education, at least in our town, is excellent but if you are brought up to be lazy then of course education goes out the door. High School education is free for everyone but only a few motivated students take advantage of it, the other say someone owes me a living and I am not going to take advantage of it.
This story was about taxing a family owned business and how one man took advantage of the things handed to him and made something of it. So they should tax them more? I don't think so.
We have or had W2 in Wisconsin, That is where they send the poor (welfare) to school to get an education or trade.(free) It worked in the beginning. i knew someone who graduated and made a decient living. Her education was Free. She got free day care for a year and free medical until she qualified for insurance at the place she worked. But, it evidentually fell through the cracks because some didn't think they were making enough. Wisconsin is one of the leading states in trying to get the welfare off the rolls but it's the trickle down effect. The kids are like the parents, they don't want education or better yet they want to run the streets.
I can't see why if someone doesn't want help whey we sould force it doew them.
I pay my fair share and I am willing to do it but I don't want to give my fair share to people that don't want to work....
posted on March 10, 2004 10:28:16 AM new
Education Libra ??? What about all of the educated that have lost their jobs to India and China ??
375,000 people lost their unemployment benefits in January. They once had jobs, now they are not even counted in the Bush unemployment rate.
And your answer is that it is because their parents and lazy and they too are lazy. A very simplistic answer, without a grain of reality in it.
"At a weekend conference on immigration and jobs hosted by The American Cause, which this writer chairs, one speaker blurted out that while he voted for Bush in 2000, he would never do so again. The room erupted in applause, though virtually all there were conservatives, and all had once been Goldwater-Nixon-Reagan Republicans."
"The trade deals the U.S. government then negotiated, at the behest of U.S. corporations, were not really trade deals at all, but enabling acts. U.S. corporations were told: You can now shut your U.S. factories, shed your U.S. workers, build your new plants in Mexico, China and India, and bring your finished goods back to the United States, free of charge. Go for it!"
"As Paul Craig Roberts writes, what is happening is not "free trade" in the Adam Smith sense where Portugal makes wine and Britain makes textiles and ships. What is happening is the mass transfer of the "factors of production" from First World countries to Third World countries."
posted on March 10, 2004 11:34:24 AM new
Most poor people are poor because of their irresponsible behavior: drugs, alcohol, gambling or illegitimate kids. And then they blame the rich for their problems.
posted on March 10, 2004 12:15:42 PM new
I've known a lot of poor people. Not a single one ever blamed the rich for their problems. They didn't have illegitimate kids, and couldn't afford drugs, alcohol or gambling. Where oh where do you guys get such ideas.
posted on March 10, 2004 05:16:36 PM newFirst thing I don't eat McDonalds so I don't know who works there. But I do look at their help wanted ads and one McDonald's in our area pays $10.00 an hour. I think the cheapest wage for a McDonalds employee is $7.00 an hour. Yes I am saying they are basically lazy.
What a crock. Take a look at the majority of people working a McDonalds & other fast food places. The vast majority are students either earning money for school or necessities--in fact, I was one who worked at a fast food place (Der Wienerschnitzel) to help pay for my college tuition. McDonald's & the rest also hire senior citizens who either have to work to supplement income or who want to work to keep busy. And one person I know took a job at a fast food place to keep at least some dough coming in while he tried to get a job in his own field after he was laid off. Yeah, people who work these places are real lazy.
A person who refuses to work & expects handouts is lazy, not someone who goes out and gets a job.
edited for UBB
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
[ edited by bunnicula on Mar 10, 2004 05:20 PM ]
posted on March 10, 2004 05:19:55 PM newI've known a lot of poor people. Not a single one ever blamed the rich for their problems. They didn't have illegitimate kids, and couldn't afford drugs, alcohol or gambling.
Then how did your friends get/remain poor? Most poor people are poor for a reason.
posted on March 10, 2004 05:54:24 PM new
Ebayauctionguy,
Many people are born poor. In the case of George Bush he was born wealthy. If he had been born on tobacco road, I doubt that he would be president today. Not many people are able to rise above such abject poverty.
Some of the poor people that I know were in the military living in a trailer park. They were good, hard working people but they were poor.
Libra
Where on earth do you live? In my local school, all of the students graduated from high school and a majority go on to college. Some work their way through school doing what you would consider menial jobs. One daughter who is now a criminologist worked in an ice cream shop. Another daughter who became a Yale psychologist worked in a drug store. Come down from you #*!@ ivory tower and get real. You appear to be strangely insulated from the community. Although my daughters are well educated they are not wealthy. From your ivory tower perspective does lack of wealth translate to failure. If so, you are a crock of #*!@.
Helen
Another job that she had while going to school was running rats. I'm sure that would be beneath your dignity.
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 10, 2004 06:09 PM ]
posted on March 10, 2004 09:11:44 PM newHelen
Some people, like Kerry, marry into money. A wife that doesn't use his name. So what is the difference.
I come from an area that has a very high drop out rate. Our educational system is very good, maybe to good. In Wisconsin one must achieve to graduate, the ones that don't drop out. A lot kids in this town don't want to go to school and will end up on the welfare rolls when they become of age as they have NO skills.
CherylI never said the men that hand out the food at McDonalds are lazy. Twisting my words. I am retired. I find not much to do. It is tough to work then, the door slams (it's called retirement) and your alone. I went out and I am working for $5.75 on hour so that I can be with people. Now that is poverty but I don't complain. The environment is clean, great people to work with and sometimes customers can drive you up a wall, but I enjoy it.
Helen I disagree with your statement In my opinion your education was inferior. Otherwise, you would know that everyone is not born with an equal chance in this country. Yes they are. It's what you do with your life is what it ends up to be.
There is no job beneath my dignity. Running rats or doing Barium enemas what's the difference. I was never "wealthy with wealth" but had a lot of knowledge. I came from a different area that you Helen. Out houses, no television, 50 cycle electricity and it wasn't that many years ago. I succeeded with my free job. I took advantage of everything that came along. We all can make something of ourselves, that is, if we want to. Of course I could have laid back and just floated along.
Well enough this thread was started because of taxes and it is just getting into a shouting and swearing match. I don't use language like that and I don't appreciate it.
Thanks for all the input.
posted on March 10, 2004 10:48:52 PM new
Everyone is not born with an equal chance in this country or any other country as a matter of fact.
Some are born rich and some are born in poverty. How can the ever widening gap between rich and poor afford everyone an equal chance? Opportunities to succeed are based on socio-economic status and although it's possible to move from one status to another, we don't all have an equal opportunity to do so. Some are born unhealthy. Some are born with low intelligence. We arrive in families that may be happy or unhappy -- some with parents who are encouraging and some who are not....Many are born as orphans with no family at all. We are born in different areas of the country where opportunity is unequal. Surely when you consider all of these various circumstances and unequal opportunities available to some of us, you will see that your statement is wrong...If you could take an average group and regulate a lot of variables you might approach what you are thinking about. But overall, everyone is not born with an equal chance. You seem to be trying to say that there is no excuse for poverty. That is just not true in this country.
posted on March 11, 2004 04:06:10 AM new
Libra, I think most of the fast foods pay minimum wage at 5.15 or 5.65 or something like that. Hardly 7-10 an hour! Even if it were 10.00 an hour, one cannot survive on that. Look at apartment rates. In a urban area, they are probably 800-1000 a month for a one bedroom piece of junk. Then you have to have some sort of transportation; factor in food, clothing, medical/dental care, too. Do you really think people who live on 1200 a month or less, are just lazy and should shoulder the burden of taxes for this country?
There may be 'free' programs out there. The problem is people do not know of them or how to apply for them. If there are any social services that can help people get on a better track in life, they dont have the funding to go out into the communities and make people aware of their existance. And there are only so many of these 'free' slots to begin with.
I think even if you get an education and do everything right, you are still picked, or get lucky because someone in a higher position finds favor with you among the masses. Do you know how many schelbs of people work for 40k-50k a year with a family of four and are still a paycheck away from poverty? In the overall picture of things, your statement is kinda ridiculous about people with less income being lazy.
