posted on July 7, 2004 10:07:07 PM new
FAITH UNDER FIRE
Robert Reich: God
worse than terrorism
Ex-Clinton labor secretary has problem with those who believe in higher authority
Robert Reich, the former U.S. labor secretary under President Bill Clinton, believes people who follow God pose a more significant threat to the modern world than terrorists do.
"Terrorism itself is not the greatest danger we face," writes Reich in a column titled "Bush's God" published in the American Prospect.
Reich begins his column criticizing the Bush administration as he pushes for a liberal understanding of America's separation of church and state.
He uses the term "religious zealots" and says their problem is that "they confuse politics with private morality."
Reich concludes his column by taking aim at those who believe in God:
The great conflict of the 21st century will not be between the West and terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic, not a belief. The true battle will be between modern civilization and anti-modernists; between those who believe in the primacy of the individual and those who believe that human beings owe their allegiance and identity to a higher authority; between those who give priority to life in this world and those who believe that human life is mere preparation for an existence beyond life; between those who believe in science, reason, and logic and those who believe that truth is revealed through Scripture and religious dogma. Terrorism will disrupt and destroy lives. But terrorism itself is not the greatest danger we face.
posted on July 7, 2004 10:25:20 PM new
linda, like I said, you're a hatefilled old poop head. Just because YOU hate everything doesn't mean everybody does.
Your hatred of everything is absolutely believable to me.
No where in that post is the word hate.
You say,""It's almost like if you had the power you'd eliminate all who believe in God off the face of the earth""
I think you got it backwards , dear.
It's the religious who want to eliminate the religion-free.
Sorry, I forgot the ubiquitous "how sad".
[ edited by crowfarm on Jul 7, 2004 10:39 PM ]
posted on July 8, 2004 04:57:45 AM new
It should not be a surprise to anyone that I wholeheartedly agree with the article. It's not God who is dangerous, it's those who will twist what they read in the bible and use it to justify their actions and to fulfill their own agenda. The bible is ANCIENT text. It's a history book with lessons meant to guide us, not to bully us. Render unto Cesaer that which is Cesaer's, unto God that which is God's. Read it anyway you'd like it still tells us to keep government and religion separate. The two make a volitile combination.
What is a basic rule most people follow? Don't talk politics and religion with family and friends. The two just do not belong together. Being "one nation under God" does not mean that the church takes over. It means we are a country of faith - many faiths. If you want to live in a country where the church rules, plan on living in oppression. Chaney would be the first to be chastised and punished for his use of the word f$@%.
posted on July 8, 2004 05:28:51 AM new
"It means we are a country of faith - many faiths."
Yes it is. So why is the media constantly bashing Bush for having faith?
"they confuse politics with private morality."
Politics without morality is what's getting worse and worse about this country. I'm not putting this blame on any specific President or the judges or the Congress. They're ALL at fault here.
We need MORE morality, not less. In a recent poll, 70% (yes, SEVENTY) of Americans identified themselves as Christians.Now obviously, they're not all regular churchgoers, but at some point in their minds, they have the basic beliefs.
"Terrorism is a tactic, not a belief."
Technically that statement is true, but he seems to have no understanding of the world. The people who employ the tactic of terrorism the most are in fact Muslim extremists. These people believe deep in their hearts that westerners must die. It *IS* in fact a religious belief and a holy war. No amount of politics or diplomacy or negotiations can change their minds or actions.
If the author had rewritten a few words, I might agree with him. Believers in Allah ARE the problem. Christians are not.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on July 8, 2004 06:42:25 AM new
The problem is that religion is being used to organize and justify military action on both sides of the battle. So, it's true that religion is the greater danger. Bush is using religion in his justification for the terror that is his war on Iraq. When he was asked by Woodward if he talked to his father about the plans to invade Iraq, he answered that his father was the wrong father to appeal to for advice. Bush said, "There's a higher father that I appeal to." Bush thinks that God is on his side! I'm sure that from the Iraqi viewpoint, Bush is a terrorist. What do you believe the Iraqis are hearing from their God?
posted on July 8, 2004 07:40:11 AM newYes it is. So why is the media constantly bashing Bush for having faith?
Because Bush's "faith" manifests as a mental illness.
Politics without morality is what's getting worse and worse about this country. I'm not putting this blame on any specific President or the judges or the Congress. They're ALL at fault here.
Politics without morality is not what Reich said. He said politics is not private morality.
We need MORE morality, not less. In a recent poll, 70% (yes, SEVENTY) of Americans identified themselves as Christians.Now obviously, they're not all regular churchgoers, but at some point in their minds, they have the basic beliefs.
You are also confusing religion with morality. We can be moral without religion, and how many examples must we cite showing the immorality of religions, all religions. And I would dispute any claim that they agree with the basic chriatian beliefs.
Technically that statement is true, but he seems to have no understanding of the world.
If we were talking about George Bush I would agree, but this is Robert Reich.
The people who employ the tactic of terrorism the most are in fact Muslim extremists.
Through history christians have done the same thing.
These people believe deep in their hearts that westerners must die.
Christianity has held the same beliefs, and many "christians" still hold this belief.
It *IS* in fact a religious belief and a holy war. No amount of politics or diplomacy or negotiations can change their minds or actions.
By "their" actions, you must include Bush and Cheney too.
If the author had rewritten a few words, I might agree with him. Believers in Allah ARE the problem. Christians are not.
From a western religious viewpoint christians are not the problem. But the muslims will see christians as the problem. Our media doesn't cover what the "christian" west does to the muslim world.
Our "christians" demand that we support Israel against the Palistinians because of their bible teachings. Bush listens to these christians.
If muslims came to America and said that their bible told them that god gave them Florida, and they took it from us, and then all mulsim countries supported them, what would be our reaction ?
Anyone who says that the muslim world has no grievances against the west is myopic and misinformed.
When we have a messianic President who supports the biblical claims of Israel, is it any wonder they attack us? We would do the same thing.
The true "intellegence" failure of of America is between Bush's ears.
posted on July 8, 2004 07:56:52 AM newBecause Bush's "faith" manifests as a mental illness.
Where did ypu get your degree?
Christianity has held the same beliefs, and many "christians" still hold this belief.
Examples?
Our "christians" demand that we support Israel against the Palistinians because of their bible teachings.
Typical left response... Palestinians had a chance for their own country... do a just a little investigating before spouting errors...
...and they took it from us
Your analgoy makes no sense, because it will never happen...This is a christian country, whether you or the others agree or not...
Don't like it, do like our forefathers did and find somewhere more to your liking...
Oh and cheryl the only "oppression" I see is coming from the left...
". . . it is important to recognize that the rise of the religious right as a political force in the United States is a relatively recent phenomenon that emerged as part of a calculated strategy by leading right-wingers in the Republican Party who - while not fundamentalist Christians themselves - recognized the need to enlist the support of this key segment of the US population in order to achieve political power."
posted on July 8, 2004 08:41:24 AM newSo why is the media constantly bashing Bush for having faith?
Nobody bashes him for having faith. He is "bashed" as you call it for trying to break down the the separation of church and state, using his "faith" as an excuse to change the Constitution, and trying to make the not just us but other countries kowtow to his personal beliefs.
And the fact that this has to be said over and over and over again to people on the religious right, shows why people don't like and are suspicious of such a religion.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 8, 2004 09:18:47 AM new
Oh, boy, twelve, just like linda again!
Twelve says,"Your analgoy makes no sense, because it will never happen...This is a christian country, whether you or the others agree or not...
Don't like it, do like our forefathers did and find somewhere more to your liking...
Oh and cheryl the only "oppression" I see is coming from the left...
"
What's THAT statement if NOT OPPRESSION, you stupid boob!
You ran around the corner so fast you ran into your own butt!
posted on July 8, 2004 10:49:01 AM new
Here's just a drop in the moral bucket of religion.
.... those child raping priests...does the Right not think raping children is immoral? How about the bishops who aided and abetted these crimes....moral or immoral?
I didn't need words carved on a block of stone to know that was wrong!
THEN the church has the bloody nerve to tell priests not to give communion to POLITICIANS who are Pro-choice!
OH, I guess they want to keep the supply of fresh meat coming for their MORAL priests!
posted on July 8, 2004 10:56:25 AM new
Crow-- I would add only one thing; It is not just the catholic priesthood that is abusing its hold over people to mask and accomplish abuse, there are other religions involved in the same stuff.
posted on July 8, 2004 12:54:01 PM new
Good point, reamond!
....my hasn't this thread dropped since my last post...no MORAL christians to defend priests??????
posted on July 8, 2004 01:06:36 PM new
I think our christian friends are still trying to figure out what "they confuse politics with private morality" means.
posted on July 8, 2004 06:14:30 PM new
I was out, now I'm back!
Child raping priests have nothing to do with religion. They're criminals just like anyone else. Throw them in jail and be done with it. They are using their position to take advantage of the innocent and that's morally wrong, no matter what kind of morals you have. These rapists aren't putting bad light on the church, they are putting a bad light on humanity. Their job has nothing to do with the badness of the act. Policemen and politicians do the same thing. Lock them all up.
"And I would dispute any claim that they agree with the basic chriatian beliefs."
We've been down that path before. According to your logic there are NO Christians. Obviously there is something wrong with your logic or definitions.
"But the muslims will see christians as the problem"
Yes, but not entirely. They hate western culture and modern values. Christianity is a part of it, but Coca-Cola and the Internet are a bigger problem in their eyes.
"using his "faith" as an excuse to change the Constitution, "
I assume you are talking about the Gay Marriage thing. Again, 70% of the country is Christian, therefore Christian morals apply. 70% of Americans are against it. I don't know what the political polls say, but I'd bet if put to a popular vote, that gay marriage would be crushed flat.
"THEN the church has the bloody nerve to tell priests not to give communion to POLITICIANS who are Pro-choice! "
I'm not going to really defend this, as I think it's stupid too. But if you want to get technical, the rapists didn't kill anyone, where abortion people do kill babies. One IS worse than the other.
Oh yeah, and you should all thank me for answering this message. Usually after I see the term "old poop head" in a thread, that side kinda loses all credibility
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on July 8, 2004 08:12:47 PM new
I scream uncontrollably when holy water is thrown on me, EAG. So what? Geez, you make it sound like a bad thing.
posted on July 9, 2004 01:03:49 AM new
Oh replaymedia, "Child raping priests have nothing to do with religion." ?!???!!??
THEY ARE religious leaders, shepherds of their flocks, spiritual guides, dispensers of religious scriptures, makers of re;igious rules....they are religious!
Replay you say, "Their job has nothing to do with the badness of the act. Policemen and politicians do the same thing. Lock them all up. "
First: they should be exterminated not locked up.
Second: Their "JOB" has everything to do with making their acts even worse. THEY set themselves up as above others, holier, christ on earth, special, priests, saviors, wise men, they wear funny clothes, can "save" souls, give forgivness, give the sacraments, spout "christian" morals and values,change water to wine and soda crackers into christ's flesh! They put on this holier-than-thou act and USE it to RAPE CHILDREN and then hide behind the skirts of their superiors who are also criminals for hidng them and their crimes.
And we ARE talking about religion not policeman.
I see no reason that a priest should be held to a different standard than a policeman or a politician rapist. They are all "role models" and are supposed to have the highest morals.
If *GOD* chooses to judge them more harshly, which I expect that he would, that is his decision.
I do think the whole repist priest situation has been handled badly. Every single one of them should have been locked up, and the superiors who covered it up should have been charged with [the word escapes me] as accompices.
I guess the problem is that SO many people like you hate priests with such a vehement passion that it's hard to tell those who were legitimitaly abused apart from the religion-hating "mee-too" nutcase types.
And you sound confused. I suspect you have no idea that all Christians aren't Catholic. But your mind is so closed that no one is going to change your mind.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on July 9, 2004 09:25:42 AM new
Excellent points, replay. Excellent points.
In Christ,
Rick
Romans 6:15-18
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on July 9, 2004 10:46:09 AM newI see no reason that a priest should be held to a different standard than a policeman or a politician rapist. They are all "role models" and are supposed to have the highest morals.
Oh really ? The trust granted to priests in their interaction to children "was" almost limitless. Politicians and police also have backround checks, priests don't.
If *GOD* chooses to judge them more harshly, which I expect that he would, that is his decision.
"God" has nothing to do with it.
I guess the problem is that SO many people like you hate priests with such a vehement passion that it's hard to tell those who were legitimitaly abused apart from the religion-hating "mee-too" nutcase types.
The public has every right to hate not only the actors, but those that covered it up and the institution that has allowed it all and still ignores it right to the top leader.
And you sound confused. I suspect you have no idea that all Christians aren't Catholic. But your mind is so closed that no one is going to change your mind.
This stuff isn't going on in just the catholic churh, it is/was going all in all christian denominations.
posted on July 9, 2004 10:49:28 AM new
You seem to forget, reamond, that it is also going on in secular public sector as well: public schools, public day cares, government institutions. But because they are churches, they gather all the headlines: it is just one more form of BIGOTRY in the secular media.
In Christ,
Rick
Genesis 1:1
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
