Swift Boat Vets and POWs for Truth achieved its primary goal yesterday with Sen. John Kerry's concession to President Bush, but the deeply divisive issues the group has raised and the activists it has spawned might not fade with the closing of the 2004 election.
"The whole group was oriented to beating Kerry; now that that's been accomplished, there is a formative discussion to say, 'Where do we go from here?'" said Jerome Corsi, co-author of the group's influential New York Times No. 1 best seller "Unfit for Command."
Corsi believes current discussions indicate there will be post-election follow up, whether through some or all of the more than 250 veterans, or through independent investigators and journalists.
"There is a movement to get Kerry to continue to release all of his documents and to press forward on the military discharge issue," Corsi said, referring to discrepancies in Kerry's record suggesting he is hiding a less-than-honorable discharge.
Corsi also notes that the concerns about Kerry's anti-war activism have grown into a movement to restore the honor of veterans who contend they have been besmirched by the conventional, leftist interpretation of the Vietnam War.
"That's going to continue," he said. "So I see Kerry is not going to simply be able to go back peacefully into the Senate and shut the door on the Vietnam chapter of his life."
"It will dog him," Corsi said, "certainly in the next two years and when he attempts to run for re-election" in 2008.
In a statement issued yesterday, the 527 group's organizer, retired Adm. Roy Hoffman, gave no indication of the group's future, but expressed pleasure at the election result.
"As we have stated since we formed, we believed that John Kerry's actions in Vietnam, coupled with the reprehensible statements he made after he returned, were serious and consequently made him unfit for command," he said.
Hoffman, one of Kerry's commanders during the war, said the group sought to "provide a voice for the courageous and honorable veterans of Vietnam, more than 280 Swift Boat Vets, Coast Guardsmen and POWs who served their country with honor."
He noted the grassroots effort attracted donors from every state, who gave more than $26 million, including more than $7 million in online contributions.
"We were the true embodiment of grassroots citizen action, complied fully with federal election law and had every right to participate in the public discussion of John Kerry's qualifications as commander in chief," Hoffman said.
'Negative, awful ads'
In their assessment of Kerry's campaign, many of the senator's defenders grudgingly point to the swiftboat vets' well-organized effort.
Asked to come up with a key moment in the campaign, analyst Juan Williams told Fox News Sunday host Chris Wallace "the turning point" was "distortions and caricatures" of Kerry, epitomized by the swiftboat vets.
Just after the Democratic convention, in which Kerry made his Vietnam service the foundation for his argument he is fit to lead the nation in a time of war, the swiftboat vets "came out with such negative, awful ads," Williams said.
"Initially, I think, the Kerry campaign didn't understand the damage that was being done [and] was slow to respond," he recalled.
"And that damage has been incalculable," Williams said. "It has stayed in the voters' minds. It has defined this campaign in such as way as to damage his opportunity to have a say. When he went into the debates, when I do focus groups and talk to people, they're still hearing the image and the echo of Swift Boat Veterans."
Discussing highlights of the campaign Tuesday, National Public Radio's Tavis Smiley told syndicated columnist Clarence Page, "We'll never forget this phrase, either, Clarence: Swiftboat ads.
"There was a flurry of political advertisements on both sides, but John Kerry was hit awfully hard by the Swift Boat Veterans," he said before playing a clip from one of nine advertisements that aired in battleground states from August through the end of the campaign.
Smiley then played a soundbite from an anti-Bush ad with "Fahrenheit 9/11" producer Michael Moore.
"So you get the swiftboat veterans on one side, you got Michael Moore on the other side. This campaign, Clarence, was unparalleled in the level of propaganda."
Page replied, "That's true, and both of those soundbites you have were turning points where you saw the anti-Bush side really began to take shape and get new energy after Michael Moore's movie came out."
Page said the swiftboat vets turned Kerry's "biggest positive into a big negative, or at least a big controversy. It really began to hurt his forward momentum, and as we saw, Kerry began to struggle going into the debates after his polling numbers fell behind those of George Bush."
Kerry campaign senior strategist Tad Devine has admitted the senator's low point was not answering the swiftboat ads right away.
But Douglas Brinkley, author of "Tour of Duty," the account of Kerry's war record that angered the swiftboat vets and prompted their campaign, has a different take on the group's effectiveness, contending they may even have helped him by energizing his base.
Brinkley wrote Tuesday in an article in the Financial Times that, "Nobody in U.S. politics can endure as many body blows without suffering psychological dents" as Kerry.
Brinkley said Kerry's initial silence amid the swiftboat vets' charges was part of his style and strategy.
"Mr. Kerry welcomes abuse," he said. "He goads his opponents to come out in the open and go for his jugular. They always do. They rise to the bait. When a group of Swift Boat vets attacked Mr. Kerry's record in August he said nothing for two weeks. Why not swing back immediately? That is not his style."
Brinkley maintains Kerry waited until the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post "exposed his critics as liars and frauds."
A defensive player by nature, Kerry waited," he said. "Ultimately, the Swift Boat attacks only helped Mr. Kerry solidify his base."
Moral values
On MSNBC's "Hardball" yesterday, reporter Andrea Mitchell tied the swiftboat campaign to the reported impact of moral values on the voting Tuesday.
She said "the way the swiftboat veterans and the other groups define John Kerry early in the campaign, is to make him seem as though he were as not in sync with moral values, because he was, you know, a flip-flopper or whatever. By having defined him that way they really put him in a box. And it was very hard for him to get out of that box.
Corsi sees a clash-of-moral-values angle also, noting parallels to Kerry's first run for Congress in 1972 as an anti-war candidate in the traditional, working-class town of Lowell, Mass.
After a big primary victory, financed by New York and Hollywood luminaries such as George Plimpton and Otto Preminger, Kerry encountered the disdain of what President Nixon termed "the silent majority," Corsi said, the people of traditional religious values who rejected the radicalism of Kerry and Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern.
But Corsi believes Kerry's biggest miscalculation was a lesson he should have learned from Nixon -- thinking he could lie to the American people and get away with it.
Kerry's lie, Corsi contends, was to "exaggerate his four short months of service in Vietnam and his minor wounds into a self-advanced glory of mythic proportions" and to falsely characterize Amerian servicemen as war criminals.
The senator, for example, was forced to backpedal on assertions he had made for decades, such as his presence in Cambodia during the war. And his refusal to release all of his military records amid numerous unanswered questions hurt his credibility, Corsi pointed out.
In his 1971 testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Kerry described the U.S. military as the "army of Genghis Kahn, "disgracing" the service of more than 2 million Americans who served with honor, Corsi added.
"All of this the American public might well have accepted and forgiven," he maintained, "if only John Kerry had told the truth and asked for forgiveness."
Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on November 4, 2004 07:27:35 PM new
Someone should tell them that their 15 minutes ended when the last poll closed Tuesday night. It's time to find a new hobby.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on November 4, 2004 07:56:19 PM new
If they do as much for Kerry as the Clinton haters have done for Bill, more power to them
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on November 5, 2004 07:59:53 AM new"All of this the American public might well have accepted and forgiven," he maintained, "if only John Kerry had told the truth and asked for forgiveness."
Maybe Bush should start telling the truth about the Iraq War and people will be more forgiving and we can come together as a nation.
There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again." George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on November 5, 2004 10:51:27 AM newSomeone should tell them that their 15 minutes ended when the last poll closed Tuesday night. It's time to find a new hobby.
Don't hold you breath til they stop, kerry brought it upon himself.
If they do as much for Kerry as the Clinton haters have done for Bill, more power to them
Kerry campaign didn't understand the damage that was being done [and] was slow to respond,
And that damage has been incalculable,
Maybe Bush should start telling the truth about the Iraq War and people will be more forgiving and we can come together as a nation.
The popular vote in this election shows the MAJORITY of Americans HAVE come together and support Pres Bush.
Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on November 5, 2004 11:41:28 AM newThe popular vote in this election shows the MAJORITY of Americans HAVE come together and support Pres Bush.
Wrong Bear, the popular vote shows the people liked Bush over Kerry - barely. That still does not prove the majority of Americans support Bush's handling of the Iraq War.
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again." George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on November 5, 2004 01:50:48 PM newWrong Bear, the popular vote shows the people liked Bush over Kerry - barely. That still does not prove the majority of Americans support Bush's handling of the Iraq War.
51% to 48% by popular vote and Bush's 286 electoral votes to Kerry's [/b] 252 proves YOU wrong.
kerry hasn't seen or heard the last from the Swift Vets and POW/MIA familys.
Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on November 5, 2004 09:51:55 PM new
Bear, 51% to 48% is not a landslide majority. It's a little more than roughly half the population that voted.
ed:
[ edited by neroter12 on Nov 5, 2004 09:52 PM ]
posted on November 5, 2004 11:30:58 PM new
The 51% to 48% is explained very well by:
By JAMES TARANTO
from the WSJ
The 'Mandate' Double Standard
Having lost the election decisively, some Democrats have now alighted on the idea that President Bush's victory was not resounding enough to constitute a "mandate."
The Washington Post's E.J. Dionne, for one, insists that "a 51-48 percent victory is not a mandate" (emphasis his). Never mind that Bush's 51% is a higher popular-vote percentage than **any Democratic candidate for president has received in 40 years***.
Dionne is aghast at the idea that the president will pursue a "radical" agenda:
An administration given to hubris will have to be checked by institutions outside what is likely to be a compliant Congress. This is no time for the independent media to be intimidated by trumped-up charges of liberal bias. Moderate Republicans will have to find the courage to say publicly what many of them say privately about this administration's habit of overreach and the excesses of right-wing legislative leaders. . . .
The burden for achieving national unity is on a president who could manage a narrow victory only by savagely trashing his opponent.
The last time a president won re-election was in 1996, when Bill Clinton managed only 49.2% of the popular vote. What did E.J. Dionne have to say then? We found his Nov. 15, 1996 column on Factiva, though it doesn't seem to be publicly available anywhere on the Web:
If you're looking for a mandate for moderation, consider that not even one voter in 10 cast a ballot for both a Democratic president and a Republican House member. You can thus make a strong case that support for politicians in Washington sticking to principle is far greater than the popular base for compromise. . . .
The upshot is that for the next two years, both parties will be competing on a playing field that is narrower than either would like. But that will not stop them from seeking advantage. To wish politics away is to ask both politicians and voters who have very strong views to abandon their principles. That won't happen. And it shouldn't.
To be fair, in 1996 Dionne was willing to allow that congressional Republicans as well as the Democratic president should stick to their principles. But now that the GOP is the undisputed majority party, suddenly he finds adherence to principle illegitimate. That speaks volumes about the magnitude of the Democratic loss.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on November 6, 2004 12:20:28 AM newDionne is aghast at the idea that the president will pursue a "radical" agenda:
Linda, I have to agree with this statment. Granted, I put my support behind Bush this time, and if I really wanted to I could have swung my mental weight for Kerry. But this militant way Bush has been presenting himself on tv lately, (reminds me a bit of haig) has me a bit concerned. I mean, I am glad he is buoyed by the popular vote he received, but if he is truly humbled by it, he will not rush into decisions out of some false overconfidence that all democratic and liberal values are bad and wrong - because they are not.[As a matter of fact, many democrat initiatives are based on Christian values: giving, sharing and hope and faith in mankind of restitution, to name a few.] I picked up a funny vibe from him like he's geared like a lawn mower man now - drowing out any previous moderate view on issues. I dont think that would be good for this country. And people will view the republican party as greedy power mongers should he pursue this way. He has to remain level headed and I hope he heads back to earth once the jubilation of the election has worn off.
ed: to add examples
[ edited by neroter12 on Nov 6, 2004 12:36 AM ]
posted on November 6, 2004 04:05:56 PM new Bear, 51% to 48% is not a landslide majority. It's a little more than roughly half the population that voted.
I didn't say it was a landslide. But clearly the MAJORITY of Americans prefered Pres Bush. After all, Clinton was reelected with less that 49% of the popular vote Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on November 6, 2004 04:13:35 PM new
Good Gawd Gertie! Neroter says,
(get this)
"" And people will view the republican party as greedy power mongers should he pursue this way. "
DUH ! TOO LATE!
WE KNOW THAT ALREADY!
You're just catching on NOW ?????!!?!?!?!
And, neroter, he's not going to level off after the excitement of the election wears off.....he has NOTHING to lose and will DO ANYTHING he feels like......wants milk...invade Switzerland that hot bed of terrorism. Need chocolate...invade the Netherlands! Go, GEORGE,GO!
posted on November 6, 2004 04:30:02 PM new
No, Crow, that is what you extremist's democrates have been towing the line with for years!! You've built this monster up in your own mind, though. I believe there is an element of it in a faction of some of the party...but there are shItheads in the de\mocratic party as well. It's not just republs who do for money or power. Money and power corrupt, and they remove you from want and need. Maybe thats why Kerry could not pull the line for the party; perhaps he himself is too wealthy to relate to the so called 'core' values of the democratic party and his 'base' was not buying that he cared enough to do for them.....
You want to think politicians in general are corrupt. I'll agree with you. But just the republican party? No.
posted on November 6, 2004 05:10:13 PM new
neroter - Sorry, I missed your post before.
militant way Bush has been presenting himself on tv lately. You mean since he was re-elected or before? I haven't seen him that way...to me just being more determined than ever to fight the terrorists...and to work for more democracy in the ME as I know, from reading, he thinks that's what will work the best as people 'feel' freedom there.
I have read several statements where he's said he's willing to work towards unity...bring more of the left and right together for our best interest...but I believe he's been willing to do that all along. It's the 1/3 of the radical dems who, imo, have prevented this. It takes two sides working together to make it happen...not just one. I truly don't see it happening. I think our division in this country is way too big.
Heck even clinton kept trying to encourage kerry to come more to the 'center' like he himself did to win his re-election. In my lifetime, I sure don't see either the far left nor the far right gaining control of our WH. People want leaders more in the middle - moderates not radicals from either side.
he will not rush into decisions out of some false overconfidence that all democratic and liberal values are bad and wrong - because they are not. I'm not clear what you're referring to but if you're speaking about war...he won't be doing anything without the approval of our Congress...just like he did this time.
I personally have never taken him as a person that thinks he's better than others....he is a humble man, imo, and he did work with the dems very well in the first year and a half....until they went off the wall and started with all this crap they did. You can't continue to call the President a liar a nazi and expect he's going to be in the mood to work with you. That's only human nature. We all respond better when issues being disagreed upon are discussed without the name calling.
I think after all he's listened to for close to 4 years...like 'he wasn't elected' it probably feels REAL good to know that by beating kerry with 3.6 million more votes there's no saying that this time. And he has to see that with all that's been thrown at him....he was re-elected...that speaks volumes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Four More Years....YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Nov 6, 2004 05:14 PM ]
posted on November 6, 2004 05:23:39 PM new
On the thread topic....
from the Federalist Patriot -
"We have received thousands of inquiries about the "Petition for Investigation and Indictment" of John Kerry. According to our legal scholars, John Kerry's meetings with enemy agents from Communist North Vietnam on multiple occasions between 1970 and 1972 are not covered under Jimmy Carter's amnesty as outlined in EO 4483."
For that reason, on Monday, 22 October, we delivered (and confirmed delivery) to U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft a "Petition for Investigation and Indictment" calling on the Department of Justice to determine conclusively whether Kerry's actions, in direct violation of UCMJ (Article 104 part 904), U.S. Code (18 USC Sec. 2381 and 18 USC Sec. 953) and other applicable laws and acts of Congress, constitute treason and disqualify him from any future campaign for any national office."
As of this date, we have not heard anything from the Justice Department concerning this petition request. We plan to pursue this issue, as its endorsers have requested, to its resolution, and we fully expect an answer from AG Ashcroft. In reality, given the political sensitivity of this request, we don't expect any action before January, 05. However, we are contemplating forming an alliance with other groups like the Swiftees and POWs and moving forward with this legal challenge."
"We will keep you posted."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on November 6, 2004 05:30:59 PM new
LOL helen....I know you're still in shock that kerry wasn't elected....acceptance will come in a few years - just hang in there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on November 6, 2004 05:35:40 PM new
You misunderstood my post, linda. You keep repeating that he was reelected as if you can't believe it. As you said in your previous post..."he was re-elected...that speaks volumes."
posted on November 7, 2004 04:05:12 PM newI was simply illustrating the "volume" to you.
Thanks for the reminder, {b]THAT KERRY LOST[/b]
Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
