posted on November 29, 2004 12:17:21 PM new
Some of you talk about moralities and how we need more moral thinking people. What morals are lacking in your opinion?
posted on November 29, 2004 01:12:57 PM new
Near, one of the reasons people voted for Bush was because they wanted to see more morality in the country. People say that here (Canada) too - 'nobody has any morals left' kinda thing. I'm wondering what morals people are talking about. I just don't see people being that bad but many say the world is going to the dogs because of people's lack of morality. I wonder how so? Or are people getting the word ignorance mixed up with the word morality?
posted on November 29, 2004 03:50:56 PM new
No morals start at home, but if parents don't know what they are how can they teach their children. It has to come from somewhere and I will make a bet that all most all of the posters here have gone to Sunday school and are baptised.
When parents let their children dress like they do in school, in their hip hop clothes that show their butt crack, and girls wear their skirts so high it leaves nothing to the imagination. Those are not values to me. What are the parents teaching their children. It's time someone has to take control and if it isn't the Churches then it has to be the schools.
When young adults can disobey the rules, driving when drunk, with out licenses, drugs in cars then have parents stick up for them. Where are the morals of the parents who are supposed to teach their children morals.
Morals are values that Parents should know and teach their children. And if parents do not know what moral values are then they should be going to church to learn them. Someone tell me where else they can get them.
Evidently moral values are lacking in this discussion board when posters use cryptic letters to swear at people.
"Do onto other as you would have others do unto you" That is one of the first values that children are taught in sunday school.
You asked about Morality and I am answering what I think it is....
edited because I forgot a word.
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
[ edited by Libra63 on Nov 29, 2004 03:53 PM ]
[ edited by Libra63 on Nov 29, 2004 07:25 PM ]
posted on November 29, 2004 05:10:05 PM new
The only people showing ignorance is the ones questioning morals...
Morality is one's own idea... mine will be different than yours... speaking of illmoral... USSC is hearing medical marijuana case... hope they toss it out on its ass...
posted on November 29, 2004 06:20:37 PM new
I think specifically in the case of the election, the "morals" being spoken of is anti-gay backlash over the whole marriage amendment issue.
Obviously, morality in general is a much wider subject than that, but the liberal news media won't come out and say that more than half the country is anti-gay.
I've said it before, the gays really hurt themselves pushing this issue so hard. They are worse off now than they were a year ago in many states.
Libra makes a pretty good case for her (his? I can never remember!) definition of morals, and I'll mostly agree with her posting.
"most all of the posters here have gone to Sunday school" Actually I never did. I suspect most people did NOT. I'm a relative latecomer to the religious scene.
I also agree with Twelve. My version of morality won't necessarily equal anyone else's.
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Brian S. - "God's own emissary to the Vendio heathens"
posted on November 29, 2004 06:54:50 PM new
Morals are the difference between knowing right and wrong. It has nothing to do with religion. There are many people who don't have any religious training who certainly have morals.
As far as today's fashion for teens, that is all it is. Fashion, nothing more. My parents didn't like my teenage fashion and I am sure my grandparents didn't like my parents. It's only clothes. It's a style that comes and goes. It has nothing to do with morals.
I wonder if anyone thinks that a 17 year old girl that wears a mini skirt can't be honest. What about a 17 year old boy that wears low hung pants. Can't he be honest and upstanding. I suppose if they change these clothes and dress in more traditional clothes, their morality changes.
"Where are the morals of the parents who are supposed to teach their children morals."
These parents got their morals from their parents, who got them from their parents and so on and so on.......
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on November 29, 2004 06:57:52 PM new
Those are some good points Libra, but how can society make parents be responsible enough to instill good moral values unto their kids? Is it difficult because both parents work nowadays? I just can't see this being the responsibility of the government or schools to teach this because, like Twelve said, everyone has their own ideas of what morality is.
Twelve, so you think it's immoral to smoke marijuana? Bush claims there's NO MEDICAL VALUE in marijuana, in spite of thousands being helped - are they immoral? What about this case where the woman has a brain tumour, has tried 20 other medications without help and just wants to be able to eat pot for relief. Is she immoral? Seriously Twelve, I hope you never get sick.
posted on November 29, 2004 07:24:17 PM new
Society can't do that but parents HAVE to. I don't care how many hours a day both parents work. It is their responsibility and theirs only. Children deserve, if brought into this world, to have the opportunity to learn morals and or values and their parents are responsible. If not by them then by someone or something that knows. The only other I can think of is Sunday School. It doesn't mean they have to be church going people because any church will allow the youth to participate. Their local YMCA something as children need and must get this kind of education.
I am a Methodist. Probably one of the most liberal churches and in our town we did have catholics that came to our youth fellowship because they didn't have it and because we had youth leaders that instilled values. In our church, if you believe in God, have no church affiliation you are welcome. There is no pressure to join.
KD-That is a good question. Who should instill moral values or just values in our youth or younger children. I would like to hear an answer from yeager or an atheist. Or a non church going poster.
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
posted on November 29, 2004 07:58:06 PM new
I think this is the question that you are looking to have answered.
"but how can society make parents be responsible enough to instill good moral values unto their kids?"
Society can't. It's that simple. There have always been "model" families and families that have been lees then "model". There are many factors that go into creating moral values. I know it's hard for you to understand that religion isn't one of them. Religion is not the cure all that you might think it is.
I know a family who raised their three children in the church. He was a US government employee and she was a stay at home mom. Even though these kids would be considered a model family to many others, one of the daughter was a unwed mother, and the son was caught breaking into a school in the middle of the night with some of his gang buddies. What happened there I wonder. That is not the standard that all people who attend church should be graded on, but what happened there. There are many variables in every family.
Some of the other points of moral values might be what educational background the parents might have, the family income, the age of the parents, how many children in the family. These are just a few, and I am sure there are many more.
There has always been different moral values, and will always continue to be. There is no way to make people become moral. If you believe that morality is knowing the difference between right and wrong, then there will always be prisons filled with people who apparently don't mind being there.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on November 29, 2004 08:20:45 PM newNo morals start at home...
You can say that again!!
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on November 29, 2004 08:47:42 PM new
Morality is Relative..
For instance, it is not considered immoral in parts of Africa, to cripple one or more of your children so they can beg on the streets to help support the family, or to offer your young daughters for prostitution, for the same purpose... some people don't have the luxury of ethics or our standard of good morals, the pain of hunger and living another day dictates their morals.
posted on November 29, 2004 11:04:42 PM new
Yeager I didn't say religion I said being in a youth group with leaders that instill moral or values if the parents aren't able to is a start. Those youth leaders did not tell me to be religious, or methodist but what was right and wrong and that is what the younger children need. To prepare themselves for life. My parents did a terriffic job and yes my father was religious, a Judge, and friend to all youth in our city. He was a great role model for them as many of them came to my father for advice. He never talked religion to them. I was lucky as I had some terriffic parents.
They don't need parents that work many hours, that are to tired to talk when they get home. If parents are not around trouble starts. They need guidance and if parents aren't there who is?
You seem to have to bring religion into most subjects you talk about. This is not about religion but values to insure a productive life. What I am talking about is stealing, cheating, unable to cope, values needed to have a great life, and that has to be given to them whether it be parents and if not available any other place they can get them and yes youth groups with moral or value leaders.
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
posted on November 29, 2004 11:07:27 PM newWho should instill moral values or just values in our youth or younger children. I would like to hear an answer from yeager or an atheist. Or a non church going poster.
The parents, of course. It is part of a parent's duty to..."socialize" is a good word...to socialize their children. To teach them right from wrong & generally instill in them what they'll need to get along with the rest of the community. For some parents this socialization will include going to church or Sunday school, and that's fine. But it's not absolutely necessary.
Actually this conversation or one similar to it was held not too long ago--what constitutes morality. But with the search function no longer working, I don't know how to bring it up.
____________________
"Bad temper is its own scourge. Few things are more bitter than to feel bitter. A man's venom poisons himself more than his victim." --Charles Buxton
posted on November 29, 2004 11:21:08 PM new
Bunni I bet 60% of the married couples that both work have NO time or don't want to talk with their children about values. All they think about is Money and material things and that isn't values.
If they can't get them from their parents who do they get them from? You said going to church or Sunday School and that is something that is not tolerated by certain posters. From what I can gather church going people are considered bible thumpers and I don't believe that is so.
When religion is taboo for some posters than who will they turn to?..."the streets"
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
posted on November 30, 2004 12:18:39 AM new
Yeager: no, that isn't the thread. I remember posting on the thread I referred to--someone or other had stated that without religion there is no morality, at which point I disagreed.
Libra: I don't buy the "we don't have time" argument. It's a cop out. Take my family for instance: My dad walked out on us & my mother was left to care for me & my sister (who had a nervous breakdown & had to be hospitalized for quite a while). My mother had only a high school education but taught herself shorthand and got a job as a secretary. As we couldn't afford a car (no child support ever came our way) my mother had to take the bus to & from work. All of which meant that I was a latchkey child. I didn't see much of my mother in the mornings, as she had to leave early to get to work on time. I came home to an empty house after school and my mother didn't get home until almost 6pm every night. And weekends were her time to get work around the house done, run errands, etc. etc. etc. Yet for all that, my mother managed to instill morals, values & manners into me.... So you can see why I have no patience with parents who say they "don't have the time."
I also have no patience with parents who expect the public schools to do their job for them. Especially when they then have the gall to complain about the morals they believe the school is teaching their child!! And the same goes for religion: it is the parent's job to look after their child's spiritual life if they have religious beliefs, not the school's. If parents want their child to pray every day, they'd better ensure that they are doing so at home--and going to Sunday school as well. The lament about prayer & God not being allowed in schools is ludicrous. For one thing, only organized prayer is not allowed, kids can pray on their own all they want as long as they don't disturb others with it. And for another, what such complainers are saying is that they have so little faith in the religious teachings they are passing on to their children that going for 6 hours without being led in prayers five days a week will make them stray from the fold. What kind of a pathetic religion is that? A god so insignicant that a mere six hours makes him fade from one's mind?
What parents who say "they don't have the time" really mean is that they don't care enough to take the time.
____________________
"Bad temper is its own scourge. Few things are more bitter than to feel bitter. A man's venom poisons himself more than his victim." --Charles Buxton
posted on November 30, 2004 12:43:30 AM new
But Bunni, you have to admit that YOUR mother believed that you deserved a better life and she did instill values into you. Look what you did. You are now a librarian, which I envy you as that is what I would have liked to be but instead I was a health care worker for 45 years. I am a firm believer that now the parents want this ideal marriage. Large home, 2 cars, boat in the driveway. TV in every room and they don't give a darn about the children. They care about how they look to the public. Children are not asked to be born but if adults have children then they have to instill values so that they can survive in life. What ever way they want to do it be it them or someone else. I agree that Parents MUST do that for their children but how many do.
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
posted on November 30, 2004 12:53:09 AM new
Here is a story about a young man who was in trouble and now a star on the Green Bay Packers Football team. How he survived....
The fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge.....His website.
Born February 2, 1975 to Faye Gray and Marvin Driver, Donald Driver has become one of the most respected and dedicated players in the National Football League. He was the middle child in a five-sibling family. He lived for a time during his early teens out of a U-Haul truck, after a collection agency confiscated the family’s possessions. He also spent multiple holidays without family members and slept several nights in the motel rooms his mother purchased with food stamps. When he was three, his father named him “Quickie” because he was a quick learner who moved around the house so fast. Donald’s parents divorced when he was very young, after the divorce Marvin went to prison leaving Donald and his other sister and brothers with his mother. In desperate times, Donald Driver took desperate measures and became a drug dealer and stole cars.
At the age of 14, Donald moved in with his grandmother Betty Lofton. As long as he stayed with his grandmother, she made him attend church and bible study. While with his grandmother, Driver attended Milby High School in the southeast side of Houston. He starred in Football, Baseball, Track, and Basketball. He received a four-year scholarship to Alcorn State University, where he earned a B.S. in Accounting, and worked on finishing his master’s degree in Computer Science. He is one of the NFL’s most decorated collegiate track athletes( high jump, decathlon, long jump, triple jump) and won his conference’s athlete of the year award three straight years.
Today, he is married to Betina Driver whom he met while at Alcorn. The couple has been married for three years. In the spring of 2001, Donald and Betina created the Donald Driver Foundation. His wife directs this foundation. With their vision and motto: “Strong hands, Strong minds, Loving Hearts”, the drivers plan to give back and support there community. The organization offers assistance to women’s shelters, helping single mothers with a fresh start. The Foundation also donates to a variety of local charities. Donald has been a frequent speaker at Green Bay-area schools, addressing the importance of fitness and making good decisions. He received the “Community Service Award” from the Green Bay Chamber of Commerce in August of 2001, the Nice Guy Award in 2000, and the Walter Payton “Man of the Year” for the packers in 2002, in recognition of his community involvement. In addition, he has given time and money to the Milwaukee Juvenile Detention Center, the PALS program, Children’s Miracle Network and the Calvary Baptist Church Scholarship. He has made over 200 personal appearances since 1999. Through Donald Driver’s trials and tribulations, he has not forgotten about others in similar situations and has been assisting others to reach their goals.
_________________
To Quote John Kerry in his concession speech. "But in an american election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans
Moral development begins at home - hopefully - but doesn't end there. It takes a "village" as Hillary said or a universe. Socialization at school is a learning experience in morality, for example. I certainly don't believe that schools should be unconcerned with moral development as some have suggested. It's also important to point out that moral development and ethical behavior does not depend on religious instruction. Neither does it depend on fear of punishment. Obedience under threat of punishment or disapproval of others is not a reliable test of moral character.
posted on November 30, 2004 12:21:34 PM new
Libra, I agree with you about people wanting all the material goods in life and not having enough time to raise there kids because they have to work so much to get the money to buy the goodies they never had. I see kids having so much material stuff these days that I'm convinced it's a trade-off. I often wonder how many of them know what the 10 Commandments mean. You know, when I think of it, the only kids I really enjoy are from my friends that don't have a lot of money.
Helen, I didn't mean that morals shouldn't be taught in school, just that I didn't think it was the responsibility of the school to teach them because the school's idea of morality might be different than the parent's.
posted on November 30, 2004 12:31:39 PM new
I never liked that statement; It takes a village to raise a child
I'll raise my child, thanks (or rather I already did)
I mean look, I was watching TV, and I've seen this commercial for Playstation? X box one of those, for a game, called Grand Theft Hiest? Anyway, your the 'gangster' you spray paint public property, steal cars, run from the police, fire guns at them etc .... wtf kind of game is that?
And I know, there is probably more of that stuff out there. Now, is that 'moral'?
posted on November 30, 2004 12:45:39 PM newAnyway, your the 'gangster' you spray paint public property, steal cars, run from the police, fire guns at them etc .... wtf kind of game is that?
posted on November 30, 2004 12:49:52 PM new
Near, I think the fuzzy psychology there is if a kid can take out his frustrations in a game, then he/she won't do the real thing. I don't buy it either.
Knowing what a hard worker and kind mother she was, it must have been hard for you when she passed away Bunni. I bet she's pretty proud of you.
posted on November 30, 2004 01:06:18 PM new
It makes no sense at all, these games. I never thought about them before, until I saw the commercial for that particular one.
Bunnicula, you did have a great mother.
mine died May 20, 1977. She was a great mom too.
posted on November 30, 2004 01:13:35 PM new
Libra: Bunni I bet 60% of the married couples that both work have NO time or don't want to talk with their children about values. All they think about is Money and material things and that isn't values.
If they can't get them from their parents who do they get them from? You said going to church or Sunday School and that is something that is not tolerated by certain posters.
It should still be the responsibility of the parents or legal guardian to instill values upon the child they are responsible for regardless of whether they have the time or not. If parents do not have time to spend with their children and properly raise them, they should not be having children in the first place.
Libra, suppose you had to work 16 hours a day just to support your child. You could not work and spend time with your child. You thought work was more important. Therefore your child "was thought" values by another source. What would you do if you didn't agree with the values your child was being taught by someone else because you didn't have time to spend with your child.
The problem boils down to how society puts to much emphasis on "the perfect family" and what should be expected of them. The "Leave It To Beaver" style of a family does not work in today's society and I feel most people still rely on that model today as a guide as to how children should be raised.
Helen, I totally agree with your statement: Moral development begins at home - hopefully - but doesn't end there. It takes a "village" as Hillary said or a universe. Socialization at school is a learning experience in morality, for example.
Children learn basic values from their parents. As they grow up they will experience different sorts of new things while at school or work or even while traveling on vacation. All these places and events help shape that child's values over time. The values a person has at age 6 may not be the same values he has at 18, 35 or 50.
Q. What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A. George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War.
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There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
Prevent Bigotry through Education.