posted on January 17, 2001 08:26:38 PM new
I found this, from the article, quite amusing:
"The problem is that if tax payer money is diverted to support Christian organizations like this one, then the same funding must be provided for all. There are Muslim groups and Jewish groups doing equally impressive things. There are Hindus and Buddhists, Rastafarians and Wiccans who could probably come up with some very creative proposals for spending the taxpayers’ money while attracting more members to their temples, mosques and covens."
posted on January 17, 2001 08:50:50 PM new
Yeah. It makes you wonder how much forethought goes into his premises. To do as he proposes would require a number of legislative changes first, an entire agency structure, as he mentions, with all of the costs and planning that any new agency would require. That just to break ground on it.
Even without such things, the proposal would seem impossible if it requires a circumvention of the First amendment by some means.
Or does he mean to provide for the establishment of a full range of facilities, one each for every religious belief?
Somehow, I don't think he's thought of all of that yet.
posted on January 17, 2001 10:08:57 PM new
This thread brought to mind the word jihad, which I ran a search to check out. The meaning "holy war" is distinct to the West, originating with the crusades, but in Islam its meaning is more spiritual than literal. Anyway, I came across the following statement which seemed germane to this thread:
"We have to acknowledge again, for the sake of honesty, that historically all traditions, Muslim, Christian, Jew as well as others, had their lapses in honestly following the valued ideals of their religions or philosophies. We all made mistakes, and we still do. Muslims are no exception, and time and again religion was exploited by ambitious tyrants or violated by ignorant mobs. This is no reflection on religion, but it shows how desperately humanity is in need of better education, more enduring concern for human dignity, rights and freedom, and vigilant pursuit of justice, even at the price of curbing political and economic greed."
I agree that Bush shows no evidence of ever having thought through much of anything. I'm amazed that his advisors have let him go this far with his compassionate conservatism. It'll likely remain in a state of vague ideology but a strategic position from which to attack all those liberals who will prevent its implementation.
posted on January 18, 2001 06:06:23 AM new
For those of you who love prayer in public school I offer my experience.
When we moved to North Carolina when I was in 6th grade the first day in my new school the teacher had the whole class say a prayer together. Each child would add a small statement and then the teacher would say amen to all of it ending it.
When they got to me I refused to join in telling them I had heard several things already that I felt were inappropriate and I did not wish to mix my religion with theirs.
I was young but had strong views already.
That got me taken out in the hall and beaten
for having different beliefs than them and having the nerve to express my superior attitude. In the hall I cursed the teacher saying "May God treat you the same as you are treating me."
She was so angered by this she called my Mother to the school. My Mother informed her that I had been instructed to not join in religous activities outside my faith and we had no interest in her cheap hillbilly religion. She told the teacher that she could not imaigine the sick mental working of someone who would beat a helpless child in the name of Jesus, but she was dealing with her now not me, and if I came home again with marks on me she would come over to the teacher's home and shoot the whole rat pack of scum dead as a doornail. She pulled her .38 out of her purse to illustrate the point. It is amazing the religous tolerance this generated.
posted on January 18, 2001 09:22:27 AM new
I thought Bush and the conservative Republicans were against boondoogle spending programs at taxpayer expense.
What happened to the Republican mantra of a few years back that went something like this...
"Volunteerism, volunteerism, volunteerism"
Apparently, Bush wants to pay the volunteers (provided they volunteer to proselytize views he agrees with).
_____________________________________________
Hello Gravid,
Obviously before the no tolerance policies were instituted in the public schools. Heheh
posted on January 18, 2001 09:31:51 AM new
I don't think the government should give any money directly to any religious organization. Anytime the government hands anyone money, it usually comes with rules and mandates that are not worth the price.
I would much rather see an across the board tax cut, so I can keep more of my own money, and then donate it to the religious, veteran and civic organizations of my choice that do good works on a local and national level.
posted on January 18, 2001 09:32:41 AM new
codasaurus - Yeah she'd never make it through the metal detectors today. You had to know my Mom to appreciate the teacher was scared spitless.
She talked real quiet when she was mad and
you had no doubt she would finish off the whole clan down to the family pets in cold blood. My Dad was special forces but my Mom was scary. You could throw a pop can in the air and she would bounce it all over the sky with a pistol. When it came down you could not even tell it had been a cylinder.
[ edited by gravid on Jan 18, 2001 09:34 AM ]
posted on January 18, 2001 09:44:43 AM newI would much rather see an across the board tax cut, so I can keep more of my own money, and then donate it to the religious, veteran and civic organizations of my choice that do good works on a local and national level.
What??? And depend on individuals to determine on their own what use their own money is to be put? The folks in DC would never go for it- they know best, so just keep quiet and open your wallet.
posted on January 18, 2001 10:52:20 AM new
When the churches of this country start receiving public funds for anything then it is time for them to pay taxes. It is past time for them to pay taxes anyway. The times are not the same as they were when churches were excluded from taxation. Churches and religous organizations own enormous amounts of land and buildings and are richer than most corporations. Televangelists are the worst. They should not be exempt from taxation anymore. And if you think they put so much back into the community think again! Most people I know that have needed help from their churches have been denied it or given such a token bit of help it was sinful.
posted on January 18, 2001 11:41:52 AM new
I understand. That's why I said she was scary. But when you are a child and have just been worked over the backs of your legs with what looked like a cricket bat there is a great deal of appreciation for a parent who will leave your tormentor so scared her hands are shaking. Never got hauled out in the hall
again and beaten, and had the sense not to think I could use it as an excuse to act up in class either.
Our family had a reputation that made people leave you alone. Our house and our cars were safe because the bad boys would say "Don't mess with those people. The whole clan will hunt you down." I knew of a fellow once who turned himself in on an outstanding warrant because my Dad stoped at a couple of his hang outs and asked if anyone had seen him. He felt he was safer in jail.
posted on January 18, 2001 12:10:28 PM new
OMG, gravid, that story about your mom is funny. She reminds me of a character out of a Pat Conroy novel! That would be a great scene in a movie. Maybe played by Sally Field...??
posted on January 18, 2001 12:21:24 PM new
The idea of an Office of Faith Based Action is so inherently illogical that its absurdity is nearly overwhelming. In this sense I can't think of a closer correlation than the film Pulp Fiction, though unfortunately absent of that film's intentional satire.
Bush, or more likely the influences who have been working to establish his political career by supplying thoughts and beliefs for a blank slate, probably intend that The Office of Faith Based Action be only symbolic, a ready source of strong emotional spinning, a rhetorical edifice from which to snipe political enemies, a tower of babel to divert public attention from other political agenda. Though this goal will mainly fail with the majority of people, it might ultimately bolster support among the Torquemada wannabes and their rank and file adherents.
The machiavellian concept of the state directly subsidizing religion in any direct form should be anathema to the person who genuinely cherishes religious feedoms, both to and from. The danger isn't so much in the establishment of a single state religion imposed on everyone as it is in the dependence of religions upon government support and thereafter the government supervision and control which would be the inevitable historical end to such a movement. Incredibly ironic, if not downright Faustian.
Mybidness recently wrote an excellent piece for this forum about her town working together to help oversee the well-being of a mentally retarded resident. None expected compensation for their concern or compassion nor did they relegate his care to local religious care centers, vying to buy his soul with government subsidized inducements. If Bush were serious about more individuals becoming involved with helping others, then he would also extrol such non-sectarian examples rather than pandering only to those of the Olansky persuasion and similar special interest groups worshiping the government offertory.
posted on January 18, 2001 12:52:18 PM new
I can see which way they will try to go with this. It will be "Hey we will fund anyone oerforming a social service that will take that load off the government." However you will find that certain organizations are more equal than others because of the way the rules are written. They will have strings attached that means government is starting to tell religion what to do. Bad idea.
The fact that you have to walk into a church to get help is enough to taint the help right there. It is not a neutral enviroment like a government agency. And if you start getting preached to a little well - are you going to complain that that is not what you are there for? Are you going to say I am another religion? You might be afraid they would say "Why aren't you getting this kind of help at yopur own church?" The real answer might be We don't have a big enough building and enough members to qualify to distribute government aid. Or we don't have a person to turn in grant requests and do the paperwork for the required record keeping.
KatyD - If they made a movie about my Mom the public would say it was too far out to be believable. She was a terror. I tried to tell her not to support gambling by going to Vegas. But when she would come home with a couple months salary from winning high stakes poker it was hard to get the message across that she was supporting them.
