posted on October 29, 2000 12:16:38 PM new
I am currently a business user and at present, have had no problems. BUT here is my concern.
Paypal verfies users. You use an AVS system to verify credit card billing addresses. Fine for PAYPAL, but I have NO WAY of knowing if I am shipping to a billing, or other address.
The door for chargebacks is WIDE open. For example, As a verified seller, if I sell to a verified user, they provide me with a shipping address. I ship to the address given. Buyer claims that they never got the item. Files a claim with PP, and my account gets frozen. Even if I provide proof of delivery, that won't help. BECAUSE I can only prove where I sent it. If it is not sent to the billing address, the buyer can claim he never got it, and I am stuck. Right?
Second problem: I have read that if the proof of delivery is trackable on line, I am covered. But is that really true? Delivery confirmation ONLY shows the city and zip the item was delivered to, NOT the street address. So is that valid proof or not? Are we required to show proof of MAILING or proof of DELIVERY? To what end?
posted on October 29, 2000 03:56:38 PM new
Do you want the real answer or the Payfoe party line? We asked for address verification about THREE MONTHS AGO. Damon said it was in the works. But it seems that the programmers dont have time for this simple change because they are spending their time programming in all the new fees.
Why doesnt PP want to prevent fraud? Maybe because preventing a deal will reduce the amount of fees they can collect. But won't fraud cost them money? Not if they can just take it back out of the account of the poor sucker who accepted it, who had no way of knowing their was a problem, who relied on PP to verify the buyer.
As for their TOSOTD (TOS of the day), delivery confirmation is good enough to prove your case. However, this only works if they bother to contact you before restricting your account. According to numerous posts here, they dont. It also helps if PP policies were known to their own employees. According to posts here, PP employees are free to do whatever they want to customer accounts. So just because you have a delivery confirmation, that wont stop them from freezing your account and then telling you that DC isn't acceptable because it isnt signed, as happend to a seller I know. She did eventually "win" her case but by then the customers who had paid her via PP in the meanwhile had already negged her and her reputation took quite a hit. All because PP didnt have the common decency to email her first before freezing her account over an unjustified complaint. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 30, 2000 11:28:48 AM new
I am currently a business user and at present, have had no problems. BUT here is my concern.
Paypal verfies users. You use an AVS system to verify credit card billing addresses. Fine for PAYPAL, but I have NO WAY of knowing if I am shipping to a billing, or other address.
The door for chargebacks is WIDE open. For example, As a verified seller, if I sell to a verified user, they provide me with a shipping address. I ship to the address given. Buyer claims that they never got the item. Files a claim with PP, and my account gets frozen. Even if I provide proof of delivery, that won't help. BECAUSE I can only prove where I sent it. If it is not sent to the billing address, the buyer can claim he never got it, and I am stuck. Right?
(We are working on the credit card address release issue)
Second problem: I have read that if the proof of delivery is trackable on line, I am covered. But is that really true? Delivery confirmation ONLY shows the city and zip the item was delivered to, NOT the street address. So is that valid proof or not? Are we required to show proof of MAILING or proof of DELIVERY? To what end?
(Any form of information that can be tracked on-line is fine. We are looking for reasonable proof of delivery. Delivery confirmation is adequate).
Since I cannot verify credit card billing addresses at the moment how exactly am I protected?
I retain all my delivery confirmation receipts, but they only prove the city and zip a package was sent to. It does not specify anything else. A person can still claim that they did not receive a package and I cannot prove otherwise. Especially if the package was not even sent to their billing address (unbeknownst to me). Who takes the loss in that situation? Am I even protected? What if the purchaser is not verified, even though I am?
And, how and when does paypal choose to restrict or freeze an account? When accusation is <B>MADE, or </B>PROVEN? How about if there are NO FUNDS in the paypal account? What then? Do they go into your BANK account?
posted on October 30, 2000 02:55:04 PM new
While I do not work for PayPal, I will try to clear up some of the double talk that PayPal can't seem to get straightened out. First, none of the guarantees require a buyer to be verified...only the seller. Second, delivery confirmation is adequate because they are not using the right words (even though I have explained to Damon that there is a big difference between the 2 words and it really needs to be changed to reflect what they actually mean). The guarantee only covers the buyer if the seller does not ship the item, a buyer is not covered if a shipped item is not delivered. They keep saying "proof of delivery" which is NOT required, all that is required for the guarantee is proof of shipping, which delivery confirmation provides (as long as it is scanned somewhere along the way before the post office loses it). As far as the address, the guarantee does not even require it to be shipped to the correct address as long as you can prove you shipped something. Hope that helps as Damon can only quote the TOS which is also incorrectly worded and will not be of much help in understanding it. I finally did get this information out of Damon after playing dentist and pulling a few teeth (except for the address part, which is not even mentioned in the TOS). Remember that this only applies to the guarantees, not to chargebacks. PayPal claims to have no say in chargebacks as they only pass on what the credit card issuer decides. Also, remember this is subject to change at any time, without a moments notice. Again, hope it helps.
[ edited by auctionee on Oct 30, 2000 02:55 PM ]
posted on October 30, 2000 03:09:54 PM new
So, um, auctionee, why, when PayPal is being deliberately vague, would someone come along and claim to know that they really mean?
It is no accident when PayPal leaves somethign ambiguous. They want you to assume the best, but leave themselves legally allowed to do the worst. Why do you think that those "two words" stay the way they are? So PayPal can interpret them differently than you have.
I suggest that your presumption of benign interpretation by PayPal has lead to plenty of people being burned in the past.
For example, for a long time, PayPal spokespeople claimed that PayPal would not pass chargebacks on to sellers, although their formal TOU said the opposite. They deliberately created an ambiguity. When the time came, they just did what the TOU allowed them to do, and directely in contradiction to what their spokesperson said they would do.
PayPal explained this by saying that their then spokesperson, paypaljennifer, was in "business development". Seriously, that's what paypaldamon, the new spokesperson said.
The past would show your analysis to be good-natured but naive in the extreme.
posted on October 30, 2000 03:56:44 PM new
Thanks all, so far. Here is something disturbing I found in their TOU, under disclaimers:
X.com shall not be responsible for the verification of the identity of Users
HUH? So, if they are not responsible for it, I don't understand how I am protected. Forgive me if I seem dense, I just don't get it.
Another disturbing thing under their reasons for restricting an account is:
"Complaints received regarding non-shipment of merchandise, merchandise not as described, or problems with merchandise shipped". Now, THAT one is scary. Merchandise not as described? Problems with merchandise shipped? Oh, boy.
Call me clueless, but reading the TOU itself is VERY confusing.
Auctionee appears to be correct with regard to proof of mailing only. BUT this is for the buyer guarantee. The seller guarantee is worded differently. The language of the TOU, states:
Buyer Protection Guarantee. Purchases from Sellers who are Verified Users will be
guaranteed against fraud up to $5,000 per Buyer per year if the Seller fails to ship
the paid-for goods. This policy does not apply to disputes about the quality or
attributes of delivered goods or to goods lost in the mail. (But in their reasons for restrictions, they say they can restrict your account for merchandise, merchandise not as described, or problems with merchandise shipped". I am not trying to cause trouble, but I am new at this board, and which IS IT!!!!
The TOU says that I should be safe if I can prove I shipped it, yet it ALSO says they can restrict me for merchandise not as described, or problems with merchandise shipped ie "not received".
Where more confusion comes in is the wording in the SELLER's guarantee, which requires:
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-delivery which can be tracked online. (Most U.S. carrier companies offer this service, including the U.S. Postal Service.)
So now, I know where MY confusion is. For the buyer protection to kick in, I am reqired to show proof of shipment. To get protection as a seller, I am required to show proof of delivery. Hmmmmm. So, a person can fraudulently use a credit card, and I may still be stuck when they claim they did not get it. Don't like it one bit.
[ edited by kidsfeet on Oct 30, 2000 04:42 PM ]
Since I cannot verify credit card billing addresses at the moment how exactly am I protected?
I retain all my delivery confirmation receipts, but they only prove the city and zip a package was sent to. It does not specify anything else. A person can still claim that they did not receive a package and I cannot prove otherwise. Especially if the package was not even sent to their billing address (unbeknownst to me). Who takes the loss in that situation? Am I even protected? What if the purchaser is not verified, even though I am?
(the criteria, at the moment, requires a verified seller to keep a trackable method of on-line delivery to at least provide proof of shipping)
And, how and when does paypal choose to restrict or freeze an account? When accusation is <B>MADE, or </B>PROVEN? How about if there are NO FUNDS in the paypal account? What then? Do they go into your BANK account?(accounts are frozen at a 250.00 cumulative dollar amount in claims. We do not go into your bank account, but we will place a hold on incoming funds (PAYPAL ACCOUNT)if need be.)
. Remember that this only applies to the guarantees, not to chargebacks. PayPal claims to have no say in chargebacks as they only pass on what the credit card issuer decides. Also, remember this is subject to change at any time, without a moments notice. Again, hope it helps.
. I am not trying to cause trouble, but I am new at this board, and which IS IT!!!!