posted on July 9, 2001 03:01:21 PM new
They froze my account and wouldn't give a reason at all. I was up to 20 orders a day and then they froze my account. I do completely legit business. My machine was flooded w emails....my business backed up.....my customers are angery. They still haven't given a reason. I was/am angery enough that I've decided to contact my Congressmen(s) about this. They are finding the committees who are responsible for legistlation of internet escrows. I'll be filing a lawsuit against Paypal pretty soon. VENDERS.....DO NOT PUT A PAYPAL CART IN YOUR SITE!!! Paypal is unreliable and unregulated. Do not base your well being on these guys.
posted on July 10, 2001 12:22:23 PM new
Keep us updated. I wish I had the money to file a lawsuit against them -- see my thread at http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=16&id=666&thread=624
posted on July 12, 2001 10:48:01 AM new
"Paypal is unreliable and unregulated. Do not base your well being on these guys."
Hmm...my Visa card is highly regulated and unreliable. Starbucks is minimally regulated, but highly reliable. I do not see the correlation between the level of regulation and the level of reliability.
Does this statement make sense?
"Visa is unreliable and highly regulated. Do not base your well being on these guys."
Never mind the fact that there are 100 million Visa users, errors occur all the time, and people tolerate the errors to gain access to the Visa network. There was an error for several hundred dollars on my statement last month (I think other people statements have errors as well), the though of a Lawsuit did not cross my mind. I called Visa and we straightened it out after about 10 conversations.
Starbucks is a cofee place, not a bank like Paypal. Visa is a credit card which you pay money when they send a statement. They are regulated in that you can not lose more than $50 if it is stolen, and I believe they have time constraints to fulfill in case the make a mistake on your card.
My point is that you are right, there is no correlation between regulation and reliability when looking at every type of business in the world, but when looking at a bank like Paypal (damon will debate that, but it has all the features of a bank), there is a direct correlation. If there was a time constraint paypal had to follow to respond to inquries on why you're account is frozen, or on returning unnecessary deductions from your account, or many of the other problems users run into because paypal seems to only care about their bottom line instead of the "only 1%" of their users who have lost a lot of money because of something which could have been prevented, paypal would be a much more reliable bank/payment system.
posted on July 12, 2001 06:58:04 PM new
Paypal forgot to give me a call before they closed my business....darn!! I guess my ability to earn income isn't important. Hello Mr. Paypal....Please feel free to torch my house, rape my wife, enslave my children, and kill me.
If you don't believe freezing accounts is a problem get your volume up to 50 to 60 orders a day and have them freeze yours. When all those customers trash your reputation on ebay and your money is in the hands of Paypal while you struggle to pay venders and employees then you'll learn. It is a problem. High volume internet businesses can't live with these errors.
HMMMMMMMM. Regulation vs Reliability. Are you saying we don't need laws. God even thought we needed help....he gave us ten commandments to follow. Paypal needs more...I'd settle for one ...."Thou Shall Not Steal Escrow Money".
Damon....PS: When I find the Federal Government Subcommittee most closely responsible for regulation of the internet escrows......I'll make sure your lawyers are invited. Anyone else out their interested in being involved in some much needed legistlation just write a quick letter stating why you believe internet escrows need additional regulation. I'll be forwarding these letters to the subcommittees responsible for regulation. Send letter to Joe Mullett, 1709 Wooster Rd. West, Barberton, Ohio 44203. Please sign the letterscause we're dealing with more lawyers.
Thanks, Joe
[ edited by thesatelliteshop on Jul 12, 2001 07:22 PM ]
posted on July 13, 2001 09:32:50 PM new
I had the same thing happen to my account - it was restricted, and despite numerous times of emailing them the information they requested, I received no response (other than automated emails about re sending them info I had already) for over 4 months! I hope that you have better luck. I have a feeling since you started a post here on auctionwatch, it should get resolved much quicker, since this is bad PR for paypal. But, please keep us updated on how things go.
posted on July 14, 2001 02:37:21 AM new
i have never had a problem with paypal
paypal is the only online money service thats any good most of the problems i see posted about paypal are user related ie dont know what the heck they are doing
posted on July 14, 2001 06:52:30 AM new
"When I find the Federal Government Subcommittee most closely
responsible for regulation of the internet escrows......I'll make sure your lawyers
are invited. Anyone else out their interested in being involved in some much
needed legistlation just write a quick letter stating why you believe internet
escrows need additional regulation".
Oh Joy, just what is needed, another governmental agency investigating, controlling, dictating and interferring with the internet. Bad enough that the feds are attempting to create a sales tax for internet e-commerce, now you want them to regulate us? Just which government from what country should be in charge? Do you think for one second that anything other than greed motivates any country--I am sure taxation on internet sales, yes, including ebay items, is quite attractive source of revenue for governments to consider. Oh, but wait, FIRST they need to regulate and institute policies to protect its citizens........... NOT!
I feel for you thesatelliteshop and I too would be furious if my ability to earn a buck was taken away without warning and explanation. But, I truly resent the fact that your problem will become everyone elses compliance with forced regulation on services we utilize & enjoy. We all accept the risk--read the TOS. Why not deal with and against Paypal individually, with or without legal representation?
I for one vote NO on governmental regulation! To me, regulation = interference and forced compliance at the whim of a governmental agency that dictates how things should be for the individual. No governmental agency gets involved unless there is a financial gain for the agency, i.e., you and I pay. Further, no company or service can meet the demands of "regulation" without passing on the fees & costs to comply with the new regulations. Again, the cost is passed on to the consumers and those that utilize the service. Tempting, but No thanks!
Good Luck with YOUR lawsuit--but honestly now, to drag the rest of us in on your issue/problem is expecting a bit too much. It is inherently sad to me that we seek governmental involvement to protect us from ourselves. We took the risk and lost the gamble. If Paypal overstepped it's TOS, then go for them and do everything in your power to recoup what you have lost due to their breach. But please, don't take the rest of us with you!
Sincerely, I am sorry that this has happened to you and do wish you luck in resolving this matter amicably with Paypal.
posted on July 14, 2001 08:54:53 AM new
Hello Mitzee, Thanks for your involvment:
Consumers will benefit from legislation..... Just like consumers benefited when Moses laid down the Ten Commandments. Unfortunately large companies aren't bound to the Ten Commandments and usually don't recognize God. Their purpose is to grow and control the market in which they compete.... once in a while they do something nice ... once in a while they do something mean.
Papal will recognize higher forms of earthly power such as the United States Government and hence will abide by their laws. Papal doesn't recognize us individually as a threat. We as small Internet venders have no power over our destiny except in our ability to mold applicable Federal Laws. ADDITIONAL REGULATION WILL OCCUR WHETHER YOU AND I ARE INVOLVED OR NOT! The only question is.... "Will the laws hurt us or will they help us". "Us" referring to venders and consumers. If we are disorganized and don't care we're going to get hurt by these guys.
I believe all parties involved.... including the Escrow Companies would benefit. Security for EVERYONE has value!
Ironically I had a sales rep in from a credit card company yesterday wanting to sell us her company’s services. She spent nearly 2 hrs w me. I've poured thousands into Papal and they still don't believe I'm worth even one 5-minute courtesy phone call at a critical time. 3 weeks and still nothing.
Joe
[ edited by thesatelliteshop on Jul 14, 2001 08:57 AM ]
[ edited by thesatelliteshop on Jul 14, 2001 09:05 AM ]
What makes you so sure that they are user problems – I too have no problems with PayPal at the present time, but that doesn’t mean to say that others don’t, or that you or I never will!
I guess you have a higher opinion than I do in our regulatory and legislative process. I do not find that the laws always benefit the people and/or the consumer. Oftentimes, they simply do not. The best we can hope for with any regulation concerning Paypal would be to either make the "service" comply with banking polices and practices, including insuring accounts in case of bankruptcy or other means of loss. Perhaps with "regulation" Paypal may be forced to enhance its TOS to protect the consumers and the merchant?
Our government does not serve its people and I certainly do not think additional laws, regulations and legislation will benefit us as consumers or as sellers.
The best backlash for Paypal would be for its subscribed members/users to pull out! I do not think the investors in Paypal would take too kindly to a mass exodus. But, frankly, that will not happen as many have not experieinced your difficulty nor suffered from the tactics of one of the WORST Customer Service Departments I have encountered on the net that charges a fee.
The Buyer & Seller Protection Plan is a joke and needs serious overhaul. Legislate or regulate that...I think not. The locking and restricting of accounts for months on end with no explanation, is despicable. Again, is regulation or legislation the answer? I think not. Way too many "services" on the net that takes the fee then closes shop. Just what watchdog/consumer group will go after these violators?
Joe, there is NO excuse to justify Paypal's treatment of you nor a lack of response as to why this is happening. But sorry, I don't think legislation is the answer at all.
I am wondering what exactly you have against the government saying paypal should be considered a bank and follow the policies governing banks? How would this "simply not benefit the consumer?"
Also, I think you're solution of suggesting that we leave paypal is clearly ridiculous. Paypal often says that only about 1-4 percent (I forget the exact number) of customer's accounts are frozen. They would have very little problem if a few people stopped using their service, and in my opinion, to think an organized exodus is possible is insane.
posted on July 14, 2001 12:01:11 PM new
I had done only 12 purchase on EBAY. PAYPAL froze my account. They won't cancel it. They want my Driver's License, a recent utility bill, a recent credit card statement,and the number of my checking account. Lets not be fools. WRITE ALL OF YOUR US SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN (and WOMEN).
WE have rights as consumer and rights to privacy. They want my utility bill? I am not refinancing my house. My drivers license has my SSN# on it - no way am I giving that to PayPAL. They want my checking account number, gee I bet a lot of good can come from that. They won't cancel my account, so I will cancel the credit card which they have in their possession. COME ON FOLKS - GET FIRED UP AND WRITE LETTERS TO YOUR SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN. HIT THE FINANCE AND BANKING COMMITTEES, HIT THE COMMITTEES THAT PROTECT CONSUMERS. WHAT PAYPAL IS DOING IS UNETHICAL. LET'S MAKE A CONCERTED EFFORT TO SHARE THE NEWS WITH THE LEGISLATORS.
posted on July 14, 2001 01:07:53 PM new
Paypal got my account in December with $49,298.12 dollars in it good luck on getting any thing back. I’m fighting them in court right now.
My apologies for not expressing myself clearly enough to be understood by you. I was not promoting, recommending, believing -- or anything else -- that there be a "mass exodus" of Paypal users. My point was simply that any additional expenses, costs, or nipping at the profit margin of Paypal due to legislation/regulation compliance would be passed onto the the users, i.e., it would not effect Paypal's bottom line, just ours as individuals.
The only thing that will effect Paypal would be to lose a multi-million dollar class action lawsuit or loss of its user base to some competition. Legislation & regulation compliance will just justify yet another increase in fees in Paypals point of view and passed onto the users.
I may be insane Ben, but not for the reason you elude to in your post That was NOT my opinion nor my recommendation at all (mass exodus). Matter of fact, I said "That is NOT going to happen".
Those troubled by Paypal and feel Paypal has breached its responsibilities and duties under the TOS, DO already have legal recourse under the Attorney General's office for California. Further, users can file any number of civil actions against Paypal due to breach of contract and/or fraud and/or misappropriation of funds and/or conversion of funds/property. There ARE recourses without having Uncle Sam devising regulations and new laws to "protect" us from what we decide to risk doing.
I truly believe how Paypal is treating its members is deplorable. The Customer Service Dept. is in shambles and incredibly ineffective and insuffiecent. The freezing/restricting of accounts HAS TO BE illegal (which it IS, already). But to devise legislation when only 1% of the populace is effected (if that--considering many do not use Paypal at all) is ludicrous when there are avenues of recovery in place already.
If you want a bank & all the protection a bank has to offer--then go to c2It or Billpoint and use a BANK. Paypal does not represent itself as a bank.
If you assume the risk then please hold yourself accountable.
[ edited by mitzee on Jul 14, 2001 02:06 PM ]
posted on July 14, 2001 02:02:07 PM new
mitzee
You seem like a very thoughtful person. Where do you live? In a house or apartment building with no smoke detectors, do you drive a car with no safety glass, or air bags. Oh, and I guess because of Susan B. Anthony you can actually go to the polling stations and vote now. Congratulations is sounds like you live in a "regulated" society where the milk you drink is from cows that are regularly tested for health, and the gas you buy is from pumps that are regularly tested to ensure that you get a gallon. Any maybe you should be comforted to know when you get on a plane it has undergone a routine maintenance scheduled (not one controlled by the profit maximizing airline, I assure you) and you can be conforted that the pilot problem hasn't been up flying for 60 continuous hours when you get on your flight. Sorry but its TOO bad that the satellite shop went out of business. I think its scandalous, and you, believe or not are living in a world of regulations and laws - good ones and bad ones, ignored ones and enforced ones. Or maybe you are suggesting that we don't need more regulations. Well we certainly have plenty and legislators and rule makers need to here from business on a wide range of licensing fees, taxes, the impact of the OSHA the Family Friendly Leave Act and a wide array of issues. Do what you want, but you are regulated. The air you breathe is regulated and it was not Detroit's idea to put catalytic converters on cars. Seatbelts were not Detroit's idea either. Don't know what line of business you are in but I hope the "regulations" that you create for your clients are more rationale and stable that the "regulations" that PAYPAL is creating for its clients. Because that is exactly what they are doing. In some cases they are saying we have your money and we are changing the "regulations" after the fact for no particularly good reason. Am I pro government? Well what PAYPAL is doing now sounds vaguely familiar to what the IRS was doing a few years ago. Live where you want - abide by whatever regulations if you want. Maybe its just me - I have lived in over 20 countries. I have kind of gotten used to the U.S. because the government sure isn't perfect, but I have acquired a tast for clean air and clean water, and people keeping drunk drivers off the roads. Now those are regulations.
posted on July 14, 2001 02:21:31 PM new NOFRIENDPAYPAL
Hi,
Of course there is a need for law and order. Of course, regulation in itself is not something I am against.
You are comparing apples and oragnes, however. To compare Paypal's astrocities that effect the minority [ 1-2% of its users which not all users of computers are Paypal account holders) with regulations/legislation that effects the majority, is silly.
If you want a bank, use the online banks. If you want to have a more secure method of accepting credit cards, become a merchant with a credit card company. If you want the speed, convenience and ease of use, but accept the risk and the TOS, then so be it too.
I don't need Uncle Sam to regulate that which I am not forced to accept--and I am not forced to accept Paypal and it's scheming, dishonorable ways. I am forced to accept the arsenic levels in our waterways. I am forced to accept the increasing high levels of carbon dioxide and monoxide in our air. I am forced to accept the drunk driver that continues to drive despite 5 DUI convictions & a Court that does not throw his/her sorry rump in jail.
Clean air and clean water? Drunk drivers removed from the highways? OSHA--lol Bush is dismanteling OSHA piece by piece. In the USA? Think again. REALLLLLLLLLLLY think again.
It is ashame that some do not like/appreciate opposing debate or opinions. Perhaps, free speech has been too legislated or regulated, eh? Say the politically correct opinion like the puppet on a string.
In case you didn't notice, we are debating right now, not saying a "politically correct" opinion, just what seems logical to us.
And I do not see your logic, as NOFRIENDPAYPAL bluntly put it in his long post, it seems very clear paypal needs regulations. Before replying, let me explain what I mean.
You say, "I don't need Uncle Sam to regulate that which I am not forced to accept--and I am not forced to accept Paypal and it's scheming, dishonorable ways." You are completely right, but don't you realize that virtually nobody who signs up to paypal actually knows they freeze your account, and most of the time will not respond to you for months when you ask them why this happened??? I'm sure banks have to tell you within a defined period exactly what is happening with your money.
You also said people should use an online bank or sign up to a credit card. As you said, this is much too great of a hassle, and merchant accounts are ridiculously expensive for lower volume auction sellers. So, services like paypal are the only choice, but when they have no regulation, and advertise their "seller/buyer protection" schemes so as to make people believe that they have recourse in case something goes wrong (again, they usually will not respond to your emails or phone calls for months), it hurts the consumer.
As for your point of it being only 1-2% of users that are put out of business or hurt otherwise by paypal so why have regulations that hurt everyone (because paypal will charge more)? Well, thinking logically, do you honestly believe the majority of paypal users will be more happy with the possibility that paypal can do anything it wishes and not give an explanation for it (changing it's TOU at any time with no email notice, restrict your account for months with no answers..), or would they be more happy paying a couple more bucks knowing that if their account is restricted, paypal has to answer all of their questions in a reasable time frame, and follow other reasonable guidlines?
posted on July 14, 2001 08:06:17 PM new
. [b] services like paypal
are the only choice, but when they have no regulation, and advertise their
"seller/buyer protection" schemes so as to make people believe that they have
recourse in case something goes wrong [/b]
No, Paypal is not the only choice the small volume Seller has Ben. That is the error of your logic. You do have a choice to use online payment services that are backed by a BANK. Two come to my mind right away, Billpoint (Wells Fargo Bank) and c2It (Citibank). Both must comply with banking industry regulations. Paypal never set itself up as a bank nor represented itself as backed by a bank; rather the slippery slopes of a "payment service".
[b] Well, thinking logically, do you honestly believe the
majority of paypal users will be more happy with the possibility that paypal can
do anything it wishes and not give an explanation for it [/b]
Ben, again that IS my point. Paypal cannot do whatever it wants. It is illegal to misappropiate funds. It is illegal to covert proerty (and money IS property) of another. One can be held civilly liable if they (it) puts someone out of business by freezing their accounts and assets without just cause. There ARE recourses in the law already established for these type of infringes and violations. Again, Ben, please contact the Attorney General's Office of CA.
If one in fact incurs damages as a result of violations of their rights and/or breach of contract and/or due to the negligence of Paypal and/or the wanton disregard for another's rights--there ARE recourses available already existing.
To make myself clear, I do not support Paypal in the ways it has handled many posters on this board. Freezing accounts vs. restricting a specific amount to cover the transaction value, is deplorable. Certainly, I too, would not take such action lying down.
But Ben, I must ask you why you feel the need to turn Paypal into something it is not intended to be in the first place--a bank? I do think Paypal is approaching a mighty fine line though in that they invest the monies left in accounts, offering up Debit cards, charging a user a fee to get their own money out of the account and now this money market mutual. Wheeew, hate to say this Ben, but why would anyone want to accept that type of service from a non-bank when there are viable and comparable (cost wise) options available on the internet?
As far as the endless modifications and changes to the TOS Paypal does--hmmm, sounds like a good indicator to get out before something happens. An owner of any business has the right to establish business practices and change business practices as he/she/it sees fit. Again, if you don't like it, there is the personal choice not to accept it and leave their service.
What you refer to as "logic" is what I see as a "distinction" between having no choice to accept or not and having a choice . I don't have a choice about breathing the air, drinking/bathing/using the water supply or being the next potential victim of the repeating offending drunk driver. I DO have a choice not to sign up or stay with a service that has given SOOOOOOO many warning signs and obviously offers no protection for those Sellers that maintain a balance in their Paypal account (and yes, that is CLEAR by reading what is not included in the TOS, e.g. lack of insurance, lack of a resolution oriented fraud protection policy, "investigations" that lack time sensitivity instead of open-ended, etc. Why would anyone leave a balance anyway?!?! Heck, get a daily sweep of those funds so there is NOTHING to be frozen but perhaps one day's recipts. (Again, another choice of the Seller/User).
My recommendations would be go to c2It and/or use Billpoint as a second alternative so you have a method to receive payments for your business Ben. Secondly, contact the CA Attorney Generals Office, BBB, and file a formal complaint (either representing yourself Pro Se or via an attorney) against Paypal in the appropriate Civil Court. I agree wholeheartedly, PP needs to respond to you and resolve the issue of your frozen account/business assets. Ben, the Courts make them comply---already.
posted on July 14, 2001 09:43:06 PM new
Well all,
Maybe I am confused. I do have a choice and an opportunity to affect levels of lead in the air, arsenic in the water and the number of drunk drivers on the road. Civic organizations and activists have made it impossible for legislators to ignore them. And Mitzee (forgive me for being blunt) but where you got your 1-2% number of PAYPAL accounts is a matter of curiosity, and I would wonder for the ardent supporters of PAYPAL whether they have several thousands of dollars frozen in any accounts. And, of course you can always get an attorney at $400/hour to get your money but that would seem to be an unanticipated whack on the profit margin and PAYPAL is hoping that you will be forced to that. This company was set up by Venture Capitalists (look at their biodata sheets) - they are not regulated by shareholders nor the SEC. So what is all the money doing that is "frozen" right now? Accruing interest for the business where the money is frozen? Far too easy for much of this money to disappear- money which have no lawsuits pending about them - PAPAL will claim big losses due to fraud and some of the principals could skip with huge, unaccounted for sums of money. Is that what is going to happen? Of course, I don't know. But, when someone says that their account of $49,000 was frozen, something is going on. And for those of you that think regulations cost money, where do you think your side of the attorneys' fees and PayPal's side of the attorneys' fees will show up. Certainly as a cost of doing business which will raise their operating costs. This is an unregulated, privately held organization, that has infinite ability to tinker with the books and use the money in the frozen accounts for their own investment purposes until it gets "unfrozen". That legitimate small firms are being driven out of business would trouble Senator Harkin who looks after Small Businesses and a number of congressional members. Let me be a little blunt here one more time - "Wake up and smell the coffee."
Good night and thank you for an excellent response and clarification. I'll admit I am 18 and did not learn nearly everything I should've from my Consumer Ed. class that I can take legal action in a situation like this. I also did not know that Billpoint and c2it are backed by banks, but does that mean they also have the same regulations?
Anyway, my problem with Billpoint (I haven't looked into c2it yet) is that I sell expensive items and Billpoint only allows $500 per transaction.
The bottom line is that any service with so many millions of customers that does do illegal things repeatedly should have regulation. I do not see how you can argue with that, other than saying the thousands of people (1% of several million is still several thousand) should all file lawsuits.
posted on July 14, 2001 10:24:30 PM new NOFRIENDPAYPAL
To regulate and pass legislation because people use poor judgment and decide, yep decide (notice that I didn't say were "forced" or that they lacked consent), to remain ignorant as to the TOS and the potential risk of a service, is truly a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Anyone that has $49,000 in a PAYPAL Account is truly foolish when there are alternative, viable, protective options readily available on the net. Who on earth would allow such a sum to accumulate without sweepinjg it into a bank account immediately!?!?!? Even assuming that sum accumulated in one day, with the "You have recieved money" email from PP, would alert the account owner to remove it....NOW!
And despite the woes and problems that afflict Paypal and consquently its members, it remains a CHOICE to have an account there or not....a CHOICE to keep a high balance wherein to lose such would be disastorous ... a CHOICE not to assess your personal needs & preferences for security, regulation and protection and opt for a BANK instead....a CHOICE. Why didn't you sign up for c2It service instead?
Sorry NOFRIENDPAYPAL, I had no choice when Bush, in his infinite wisdom (NOT!) approved to allow drilling in protected wetland areas (oh did I tell you there ARE laws and regulations against that...except when the higher powers to be decide it is OK). I have no choice as to who gets behind the wheel (except myself, of course) whilst intoxicated (Oh my, there are laws against that too!! By golly some still do it). I have no choice, despite the "regulations in place" as to the allowance of amount ppm of toxic carbons that can be released in our atmosphere (Amazing how all those years of regulation and legislation over enviornmental concerns just fly out the window under certain administrations, eh?). I have no choice when the bueracratic wheels of reform turn so slow that it takes years to get a much needed protective bill passed (Hmmm, Meghan's Law comes to mind here).
"Wake up and smell the coffee" you say? I think someone is not up on his politics and possibly dulled into acceptance by the rhetoric spewed from politicians
I am not sure where you shop for a lawyer NOFRIENDPAYPAL, but I can guarantee you there are many lawyers that work way below the $400/hour fee you quoted. In addition, in many cases, at judicial discretion, legal fees may be asessed against the party found liable (possibly even attempt to show cause for punitive damages to an individual that goes way beyond the "actual damages". Further, nothing is preventing anyone from filing a law suit Pro Se (self representation). If one does not have the skill to do such, once again he/she has a choice to pay a lawyer and/or search the web for the forms (BTW, California civil forms are readily available for free... check out www.FindLaw.com) and/or consult with a paralegal who can assist you in the procedure.
Again, CHOICE and OPTIONS....amazing how much personal power we all have, eh? It is very easy to feel so victimized and look for big government to solve the problems for us. But in the final analysis, it is our own selves that put us there in the first place. No one forced you, or anyone else, to sign up for the service, keep a balance in your account, expect a non-bank service to act like a bank, accept the lack of FDIC insurance of funds, or tolerate the assinine TOS of Paypal. That was a personal choice.
Now, how about a muffin with that coffee, NOFRIENDPAYPAL?
That was NOT my opinion nor my recommendation at all (mass exodus). Matter of fact, I said "That is NOT going to happen".